S6 Ep. 1 / Christine Chappell: Help When Depression Overwhelms You as a Mom

Brenda (00:03.828)

Well, hello Alex.

Alex (00:06.102)

Hello.

Brenda (00:07.059)

Good to see you today and good to see our special guest who we're going to be introducing here. We are continuing our series called, our help series is what we're calling it. And today we're gonna be talking about depression in motherhood. And we are really excited to have Christine Chappell with us who's the author of Midnight Mercies, Walking with God Through Depression in Motherhood. But it's not her only work, she's also written, Help, I've Been Diagnosed with a Mental Disorder, and Help, My Teen is Depressed.

She is a certified biblical counselor and currently serves as the Hope and Help podcast host for the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. And Christine has had her writing published and featured in Desiring God, the Gospel Coalition, Risen Motherhood, and some other Christian platforms as well. But most notably, she is a wife and a mother. She lives in South Carolina. We learned this morning that she has Irish twins, nine and ten-year-old children, and

Alex (01:05.099)

Hehehehe.

Brenda (01:07.053)

year old. And we're just excited, Christine, to have you. We know that your own story of depression and motherhood, along with your counseling experience, we believe is going to give moms the permission they need to speak honestly about the hardships of mother and find a lot of hope in their struggles. So welcome to our podcast community.

Christine Chappell (01:27.188)

Thank you so much, Brenda and Alex. I'm really happy to be here with you on the show.

Brenda (01:33.219)

Well, we thought we would start off by just hearing your personal testimony this morning and what led you to write the work that you have written to encourage other moms.

Christine Chappell (01:47.208)

Well, to try to not have that be the whole hour that we're talking, I'll just kind of give you the highlights. But my journey really through depression started as a teenager after a car accident I had gotten into that pretty much caused a lot of damaging effects to me emotionally, mentally. I couldn't finish my senior year in college, couldn't play my senior year of basketball.

Alex (01:51.534)

Hehehe

Christine Chappell (02:14.7)

It was really just something that had happened to me that just totally turned my world upside down. And at that time, I was not a believer in Christ. And so, you know, I went through that season of loss and pain and disorienting changes in my world. And in the wake of that experience, panic attacks, temptations to self harm, suicidal thoughts, an eating disorder for a while, and then of course, depression. And as the years went on, the Lord was merciful.

And before I even knew him, he was merciful, right? I can look back and see that now. But I continued to struggle on and off with depression and self-harm specifically into my adulthood, even into my marriage, into my motherhood experience. And it wasn't until our daughter was five years old and I was a 28-year-old young mother and wife that I came to know Christ. And so half of my journey through depression and a lot of the hard things that I write about happened before I was even a believer.

So, come fast forward these years to walking with Christ. My dad had just died actually two weeks after my dad passed away is when I came to know my earthly or my heavenly father. I was so thankful for the joy of salvation in the midst of that grief. But at the same time, I don't know, I guess I think I maybe thought that because of my new Christian identity and my new Christian faith.

and just the zealousness that I had as a new believer, that maybe I would be able to, by faith, eradicate some of the struggles that I had continued to experience throughout my motherhood and marriage, the temptations to self-harm and to depression, experiencing depression in the midst of hurt and heartbreak. And so I think that...

just developed in me a kind of mentality that perhaps I could fix myself, that I could do the right things, apply the right formulas, rehearse the right scriptures, and I would be able to somehow speed up my sanctification and make it to where I would just be sorrow-free and that in the face of pain and heartbreak and hurt and conflict and difficulties and overwhelm and all the things that you experience in motherhood and in relationships.

Brenda (04:24.927)

Hehehe

Christine Chappell (04:38.728)

that I would just be able to endure all that with a smile on my face and a pep on my step and nothing's going to get me down. And of course, our Christian faith doesn't make us impervious to sorrow. That's not how it works. And so the book, Midnight Mercies, really takes you into a week of my life where there had just been so many different things going on in our lives. Losses, griefs, hardships, overwhelmed, exhaustion.

And you just sometimes as a mom and a woman and a limited human being get to a point where the world just feels so heavy and impossible to endure that you just don't want to go on anymore. And that's where Midnight Mercy starts is where I realized that that's where I was at. And I confess that to my husband that I just didn't want to live. I didn't want to live that way anymore. That nothing I had tried was able to f***.

fix me to stop feeling depressed when life was hard and things hurt. And so yeah, and so on the advice of our insurance provider, because we had just relocated to South Carolina and didn't have a doctor to see, we went to the emergency room and I was hospitalized in the psychiatric hospital for the second time in my life.

And so that's where I'll kind of end this testimony of sorts, because I'm sure we'll kind of talk about God's faithfulness in the midst of all that as we go on. But that's really to bring you down to where I was at that point and why this particular topic is so meaningful to me personally.

Alex (06:22.254)

Hmm.

Thank you for sharing your story, Christine. I think it's always deeply meaningful for people to hear that you're coming from a place of personal experience. Of course, we all sit with women who struggle with depression, but that personal experience, I think, really translates into amazing empathy and compassion. As you were talking and you talked about your early depression as a teenager around that time of the accident,

Brenda (06:23.539)

Thank you, Seth.

Alex (06:53.46)

moving into depression and motherhood, I think the question that came to my mind was, what do you think the different challenges are of depression and motherhood compared to other seasons of life?

Christine Chappell (07:05.012)

Yeah, well, I mean, when I was going through depression as a teenager, I didn't have any responsibilities. I, you know, my mom was taking care of me. My dad was, you know, I had people taking care of me. I was the one receiving the care. And as mothers, you know, especially, you know, at the time that I write midnight, that we kind of go through a midnight mercies, my daughter actually went into the mental hospital on the day of my daughter's first day of sixth

maybe 12, and then my two youngest, maybe three and four. So, you know, relatively young children, I had, you have to care for them. So, you know, and I think we maybe have heard this sometimes as moms, like, well, moms are the caretakers of their families, right? But who's taking care of mom? You know, and it's not to say that we don't have people that are taking care of us, but their roles are just so different as a child receiving, you know, your parental care or the guardian's care of.

people who you live with and are watching over you, but as a mom, you're that guardian, you're that parent, your role has changed. And so the burden then is how do I keep carrying on with this burden of depression or this grief or whatever it is you're experiencing and still function for my family in a way that...

it tends to their needs, their very real needs, right? They need someone to care for them. That's what we're called to do. And yet we're in a position when we're in depression is that we have those cognitive impairments. We're having that to battle just to get out of bed sometimes. And so I think, yeah, that's the difference is the caretaker role versus the one receiving the care.

Alex (08:45.422)

Hmm.

Christine Chappell (08:53.524)

And in moms and in Christian moms, you know, maybe particularly we may have that sense of like, I just have to sweep how I'm feeling under the rug because I don't have time for this. We've got so much going on. I don't have time to be depressed. I don't have time to deal with this inner angst that I'm feeling. So I'm just going to scoot that away or stuff it down or ignore it or, you know, try to bury it with other things like substances or.

you know, food or just kind of the different things that we might turn to, to kind of stuff those difficult emotions down and not deal with them at the time, simply for the purposes of trying to function for our family. And so yeah, that's kind of how I would see those two different distinctions and those two different seasons of life.

Alex (09:33.544)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (09:42.538)

And I think because we are supposed to be the nurturers, there's this added burden of shame that comes with depression and motherhood. It's like, like you said, we're supposed to keep going, we're supposed to be taking care of everyone else. And so along with holding all the symptoms of depression, we're also holding a great burden of shame to even admit that we don't know how to take care of everybody right now.

Christine Chappell (10:09.288)

Yeah, I mean, when we don't even know how to take care of ourselves in those moments, let alone to try to spin all the different plates. And I think even to that shame that you're talking about, Alex, can be compounded when we think about, you know, it kind of zoom out on this picture of, I like to call it the experience of depression, because it doesn't just happen in this little, you know, internal bubble. Like we have all of these different roles and responsibilities that we function in. And we also need to think of the context of our adult relationships.

Alex (10:12.568)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (10:38.812)

you know, we may be in a relationship or with family members or spouse or friends or a church family where there is that external condemnation coming from like, well, why is this so hard for you? Or this shouldn't be so hard or well, this isn't hard for me. So why is it hard for you? I don't struggle that way. Why are you struggling with that way? You know, so there's almost the scriptures say that, you know, sometimes like we look for sympathy, but find none.

And I think as moms who are walking through depression, that can sometimes be our experiences that the people that we do end up entrusting our sorrows to, we do disclose that we are feeling overwhelmed and that we're struggling in this way. Sometimes that's met with words that really just kind of shove the difficulty of the experience away and just try to push people past their pain.

So that they can just go on and do and be productive and be fruitful and do you know the things that need to get done Instead of allowing that time to really explore and to feel and to wrestle And so I think that is another thing that we face in motherhood is just you know The different pushback that we might get And shame that we feel when people think well, it really shouldn't be this hard. You don't really have it that bad What do you have to be so upset about?

Brenda (12:01.543)

Yeah, I've really been thinking about just how pervasive this issue of depression is in motherhood because it starts with wanting to get pregnant.

and for many people the inability, the longing for motherhood and the feelings of great discouragement that can come there. I remember with my littles, I felt so overwhelmed and physically exhausted. And then you kind of go up through the years. I was reminded that we have kindred hearts. I wrote this little book called Motherhood, Hope for Discouraged Moms, about 14 years ago when my children were teenagers.

years, but I can remember that was a really difficult season. And then, you know, what I've really come to realize is that being a mother of adult children has its own challenges and can be very disappointing and discouraging for mothers. In fact, I would say that it can bring some of the maybe the greatest heartaches. So it's not an issue that is going to go away even though our children grow up and maybe move out and move on. And what I really like, Christine,

symptoms of depression more broadly than hopelessness? I really like what you do in your book and could you maybe share some of the ways that depression is manifested in motherhood? What would be some other ways that we would define it or describe it or acknowledge that we're struggling?

Christine Chappell (13:30.9)

Well, I think definitely hopelessness is the most distinguishing hallmark of depression, especially when you are trying to think, well, am I grieving or am I depressed? I think another way of distinguishing depression from perhaps everyday normal struggles or grief that's related to loss is the danger component.

Christine Chappell (13:55.644)

responses. For me, the dangerous response that I had to the hopelessness that I felt was turning to alcohol and self-harm to try to find relief or to try to find some temporary means of escape of my overwhelming emotions. But I think it's also really helpful for us to, like you said, kind of expand or broaden our understanding of the experience of depression.

You know, there are so many different emotional facets to that experience. And it's difficult for the person who's suffering maybe to even know that that's there to even be able to articulate it. And so in Midnight Mercies, I tried to show and to normalize, right? The fact that depression is a term, you know, that encapsulates a multifaceted human experience and a lot of

common emotions that people will feel as they are going through that type of experience is so much more than hopelessness. There's the element of weariness there. There's sadness typically involved. And even if it's not loss-related sadness, although studies show that the majority of the time depression is associated with some kind of loss-related sadness doesn't necessarily have to be, but you can even be sad that you're depressed.

Sadness can be so much more than, and I would even argue, if you're sad because you're feeling depressed, it's because you have experienced some kind of a loss, even in the fact that you are depressed, you've lost function, you've lost abilities, you've lost that sense of yourself. So I won't go on about that, but I think sadness is definitely there, but then also anger. And anger, oftentimes when I talk to people about that is kind of like the...

Brenda (15:18.026)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (15:37.43)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (15:42.038)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (15:47.7)

element. But when I say that the distinguishing, from my perspective and my own experience, how to distinguish normal everyday struggles from depression is that element of danger that comes from hopelessness. And then in our response, we turn to harmful ways of trying to cope or self-medicate or refuges that we turn to that ultimately are destructive. And so anger toward God, anger toward other people, anger even toward yourself.

for struggling in the ways that you are. But then we also have anxiety, which is commonly associated with the experience of depression and shame and loneliness. So there's a big old mess of tangled up emotions. And I'm not saying you can clearly distinguish them all. In fact, I don't think you can. They all kind of fit and weave together in our everyday experiences.

And that's what I try to demonstrate in Midnight Mercies is don't oversimplify what you're going through, right? It's so much more to it than just, oh, I'm having a bad day or, oh, I'm in a bad mood or, oh, I'm having this side effect to my medication and just kind of oversimplifying things. God knows. God knows how intricately woven you are and how you are experiencing your world.

And so I think just recognizing that there's a lot more to it than just the term, I'm depressed, but realizing that to say such a thing is a good starting point, but you don't want to stop there, right? You want to have that propel you into a conversation with someone to kind of explore what's underneath that and what does it feel like for you today to be depressed.

Brenda (17:39.103)

That's good. Yeah, I think really.

especially differentiating between what would be normal discouragement, which I think all mothers face to what is dangerous. I think that element of hopelessness is something that mothers really need to identify. And then to your point, going to a broader understanding and giving more verbiage, more understanding to the experience that is creating the discouragement, the depression, the feelings of hopelessness. Well, I'd love to turn our attention a

Brenda (18:13.426)

that we can give to mothers who are struggling with depression and the hope that you found and the hope that you're sharing. I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that.

Christine Chappell (18:24.896)

Gosh, well, yeah, I mean, where do I start with that? Well, I think probably where I will start is with the Bible verse that just even inspired the term midnight mercies, which comes from Isaiah 42, 16, which is the Lord speaking, and he says that he will lead the blind in a way they do not know, on paths they have not known, I will guide them.

I will turn the darkness before them into light, the rough places into level ground. These are the things I do and I will not forsake them." And that's the Lord. That is where I turn to get the term midnight mercy is because we see there that God displays that understanding of He knows that we're blinded by...

our experience of depression. He knows we cannot see beyond tomorrow. It feels like the future is bleak. We do not see or sense him or our hope, right? And he's saying, I will lead you here, even here in this dark day or this dark moment. I'm here, I see you, I know you're blind. I will guide you forward. But he also gives us that promise of, I will turn this darkness before you into light.

and I will turn the rough ground before you, I will level that. And then I love how he says, these are the things I do. Because I think my temptation as I experienced depression on and off through the years was to rest in what I could do to try to get out of it. And so that obviously puts us and propels us towards self-reliance.

and self-righteousness. And so I'll feel good on days where I feel like I have it together. I'm doing good, I'm doing it. Yeah, I did it. Right, but on the days when I'm not doing good and I'm falling apart, then I have all that self-condemnation, that self-pity, that self-hatred going on. And so I love how the Lord encourages us that He's the one who brings light to our darkness, that He will guide us through, right? And then He says, and I will not forsake them.

Christine Chappell (20:43.176)

So those of you who feel blinded by the darkness that you're in and you can't figure out how to turn the lights back on again, God says, I'm not going to forsake you, that I will do according to my word and the light that I have sent to you into your darkness is the dawn from on high, Jesus Christ who comes down and enters into our dark world, right? To deliver us from eternal sorrow, to deliver us from perpetual darkness.

close to the brokenhearted and draws near to the crushed spirit. And I didn't have to work myself out of depression, which is what I had been trying to do for years. The hope that God gave me was that I could rest in the righteousness of Christ. I didn't have to suffer my sorrows perfectly. I could take my next small step in faith in front of me moment by moment and trust that He would carry me through to tomorrow, that I was held by the everlasting arms.

and that because Jesus overcame the darkness on my behalf, I could wait for him. I could wait and rest in him and know that, okay, things aren't looking good right now. Right? But God says, God says he hasn't forsaken me here. So instead of asking God, how do I get out of this depression? He helped me to really reframe that and say, Lord, I'm depressed. How then do I live?

Alex (22:08.691)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (22:09.16)

And I think that was a turning point for me to know that he was not inviting me to work harder at not being depressed, that he was inviting me to rest in his work that overcame the darkness and to trust that as I waited and watched for him in his steadfast love to meet me, that he would do what he promised and that he would come and his presence would be sufficient to meet me.

where I was at and give me hope.

Brenda (22:40.543)

Christine, that'll preach. That'll preach. I was thinking, we just need to take that little, just that little piece right there. And yeah, that's a little mic drop moment right there. And it'd just be a little something that every mom could play back almost daily, just to be reminded.

Alex (22:41.13)

I'm really glad that you could have run a... That's good then.

Alex (22:52.796)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (22:58.465)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (23:00.039)

I was reading in Psalm 112 this morning was my morning quiet time and I thought about you and I thought about this interview verse 4 says even in the darkness light dawns for the upright and so I love I love everything you just shared there and I also think just as moms my daughter is Has a almost nine month old now first time mom and of course watching her go through motherhood And she lives in town has been such a reminder to me of

the weightiness and the heaviness and that temptation to be like it's all on me. And she and I have talked about how even though her husband is wonderful, he is great, he helps so much, but at the end of the day, day and night, moms do not, can't not stop thinking about their children and the care of their children. It is just a part of our very fiber and so if we absorb all that and take it all that it's all on me, all of their safety, all of their well-being, all of

Alex (23:34.663)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (23:59.973)

journey, you know, all of their relationships, if it's all on me, we will be crushed under that weight. And so releasing daily to the Lord. And I love the idea too that sometimes we have to sit and wait on the Lord as the light comes, knowing that it will come, that hope, right? That's the hope that gets us through the darkness is that light will come.

Alex (24:00.008)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (24:07.046)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (24:22.702)

Hmm. And I think the waiting is just the, I mean, is this the most simplistic statement I can make? The waiting is the hardest part, but like, I think the Lord has taken me to that point of surrender that you're talking about, Christine, and then to recognize that waiting on the Lord means, waiting, let me say it this way, waiting is the hardest work I've ever done.

Brenda (24:49.415)

Yeah.

Alex (24:49.69)

I thought the hard work was trying to get myself out of the chronic pain, depression that came with it, right? But the waiting was actually the hardest work I had ever done. And I think there's something I'd like for us to put into words, and this is such a nuanced discussion that, but I think it needs to be fleshed out because waiting is not passive.

Like there is something that we actually do in the waiting, but it looks very different from trying to get myself out of depression. So can you help us nuance that?

Christine Chappell (25:22.984)

Yes, and I love that question. I really do love that question because I look back, you know, the book kind of takes you into the week I was at the mental hospital and I won't give away the end, but you know, God being faithful and merciful to me in my story, he met me there in the mental hospital in a really life-changing way, really, just to be honest. But after that, going back home.

reentering the world, what did that mean for me? What did this experience that I had just had with the Lord, where everything I just said, all that hope that I just gave, how did that impact my journey moving forward? Because I didn't just leave the hospital and it's like, oh, this is great. I'm fine now. Nothing in my circumstances had changed. I had actually been diagnosed with a mental disorder. So I was reentering the world with

Alex (26:10.983)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (26:21.032)

refreshed in my hope to wait on the Lord, and yet scared of what on earth is this going to look like for me? And so, how the Lord helped me, and how I encourage women in the midst of that waiting on the Lord, right? And we don't want to wait and put our hope in change. We can hope for change. We don't want to put our hope in change. Our hope always has to be in Christ.

Alex (26:26.658)

Hmm.

Alex (26:42.492)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (26:50.308)

And I think that it's safe to hope for change because ultimately, whether on this side of heaven or when we get to glory, change is going to come. Right? It's just a matter of waiting. It's just a matter of waiting for when is the light going to come? We don't know, you know, in our own little worlds and experiences of depression, but it's going to come regardless because the story cannot end in darkness. So kind of having that broader perspective. But in the meantime, while we are waiting, and as you say, Alex, it's not passive.

Alex (27:12.161)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (27:19.54)

What are we to do? How then are we to live? And I love that the commandment of the Lord is not burdensome because it is a burden to try to fix yourself, to try to always be perfect in the midst of your suffering, to try to, you know, strong arm yourself, to always feeling pleasant and happy, right? That's not the goal. The commandment of the Lord is not burdensome and His commandments are to love God.

with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Or in other words, to turn your inability to fix your sorrows into an ability to serve others as you are waiting on God to do the work that he's promised to do in your life. And so as a mom, in the moment, that looked like, well, yeah, I'm feeling depressed right now and I'm, you know, feeling tired. I don't feel like I have a lot of hope.

You know, I'm wrestling with all this doubt and confusion, but what has God put immediately before me where I can take that next small step in obedience? Because I'm called to faithful obedience and I'm called to entrust the final outcomes to God. And so I can make my kid a sandwich and that is pleasing to the Lord. Right? I can do this load of laundry and fold it and that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord. Right? I can look for ways to serve somebody else.

even in the midst of my sorrow or my depression, and know that God will not forget the good works that I have done to be a blessing to other people. And so it really just began this shift in me. And I'm not saying that I'm perfect. And I'm not saying I'm not selfish. I'm not on this emotional pinnacle or anything like that. But at the end of the day, we do have to do something. We cry out to the Lord. We lament.

We turn to a friend, you know, but then what? We've got to do something. And sometimes our next right step in obedience is to look for the next person to love and serve. And Isaiah even talks about that. I'm sorry, I don't know off the top of my head what scripture it is, but he's talking about the true fasting. And he's saying, you know, that, you know, the fasting that God, you know, wants us for us to concern ourselves with the needs of other people.

Alex (29:22.431)

Hmm.

Alex (29:33.633)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (29:41.724)

And that as we serve God's body and we serve other people with the love of Christ, not because we feel like it, but because we've been entrusted with the love of Christ and to share the gospel, that even our bones are refreshed. That we actually do bring light to our darkness through our acts of service. And so that's how I would address that question, Alex, is to encourage that what our Savior

Alex (29:42.21)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (30:10.452)

displayed on the cross, which was a humble other mindedness, right? In the midst of his misery, what did he do? I was hanging on the cross and he concerns himself with his mother's care. He says, John, you know, this is your mother, this is your son. Like he's making arrangements to make sure his mom is taken care of in the midst of his agony. You know, it's just a humble other mindedness that he modeled for us that I think is within our power to do.

in small ways, you know, but I think that was what helped me the most in the midst of the waiting was to know that I wasn't useless, that I still had purpose. And even if I couldn't act on that physically because I was, you know, so exhausted, you know, I could still even in my mind pray, think of people to pray for. I mean, there's so many different ways we can reorient ourselves to the needs of others, even as we are trying to not be so fixated on our own needs.

Alex (30:46.902)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (31:08.415)

Christine, I have this question for you. In the midst of your depression, how did you guys communicate with your children? What was going on? And what was the support that your husband gave? What would be good for husbands to know in helping their wives?

Christine Chappell (31:28.192)

I wish I had a really mature Christian answer for this. My two youngest children were, I don't think that they really knew why mom had been gone for a week. And I don't know that my husband gave them any details. I don't think we really explained that I was having a meltdown and needed care.

in that way, I think it was most impactful on our oldest daughter. And so I have not made it a secret to her at that time that I was just going through something that was hard and needed to have help and support. And so I don't think we went too deeply into it just for trying to protect them and not to terrify them with...

Brenda (32:22.879)

sure.

Christine Chappell (32:23.548)

With the details, they didn't need to know how bad it really was, even though she knows now, of course. And I even, you know, the Lord had, I feel like equipped me to minister to her in her moment of where she, you know, I write about and help my teen is depressed. You know, she had a sudden onset autoimmune disorder that crippled her for a year. And you know, so she kind of went through a similar loss that I did, you know, of just your whole world being turned around.

Brenda (32:35.903)

Hmm.

Christine Chappell (32:52.924)

And so she herself has walked through a lot of the same stuff and I was able to minister to her through that. But I think the support of a husband or any close friend, you know, I mean, if you don't have a husband, a close family member or a close friend, someone that you can trust is so important. You know, I think to have at least one person that you can turn to and know that you could tell them what's going on.

to have that one safe person to turn to is so important. But I also just want to say that some of us don't have that. And there were times where I disclosed how I was feeling to family members or to my husband or to others, and it wasn't always met with comfort, like I talked about. And that can sometimes be one of the reasons why we can be so hesitant to share how dark our world has really gotten.

because we've been misunderstood and mishandled in the past when we've tried. And so that's I think what some, you know, for me, I had been wrestling with that and I think other mothers too can, I know because I've counseled them, you know, can resonate with that experience of feeling like there's no one safe to turn to right now. And of course, if we feel like God has forsaken us, then he's not even there. So where else do we go but inside ourselves?

which is a destructive, you know, it just leads us into a downward spiral of despair and we get to a place where we just want to escape by our own hands. And so I think if you are a husband of a mother or a family member of someone who is a mother who's going through depression, communicating that I think what my husband said to me at the time that I, that week I talk about, he said it was the most simplistic thing, but he just said...

Like, I'm not going anywhere. I'm here, I'm not going anywhere. You know, and I think we see that even in the book of Ruth, when Naomi is as what so many people in depression, you know, may be tempted to do is to push people away. Like Naomi is trying to push Ruth away, like, no, I don't have anything good to offer to you. You know, why would you even come with me on this journey? I'm a widow, I'm alienated and destitute, I have nothing to give you. And...

Alex (34:50.766)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (35:16.72)

And Ruth is like, where you go, I will go. Where you stay, I will stay. Your God will be my God. And I think something as profound as communicating that you're in this with them, that you're not going anywhere, and that your love or care for that person is not dependent upon their ability to get their act together, or to get over it, or to move forward, or just whatever it is. It's a commitment.

Alex (35:40.447)

Mm.

Christine Chappell (35:45.48)

that we make to one another as spouses or as family, you know, that we're here. We're here for the long haul and we'll walk with them as long as it takes, you know, and we don't know how long that will be, but we want to be there just as our Savior is. And so I think just even communicating that is so important because it gets the point across that person recognizes it's not a quick fix.

Alex (36:14.442)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (36:14.896)

you know, that it's not just a couple days, it's that this is usually something that someone has to navigate for a period of time. And so a commitment, you know, that is verbal, that says, I'm here, I'm here for you. That's what compassion is, right? To walk with compassion is to walk with people in their suffering, however long that's going to last. And so communicating that is, I think, really important.

Alex (36:44.778)

And I think sometimes people can think they're doing something wrong to say, I'm in depression with you. Like, oh, like, um, like you're encouraging that, that state or that you're, you know,

And I am so glad to hear you say, no, it really is as simple as loving somebody where they are in their struggle and letting them know that they're not gonna be abandoned and not trying to quick fix them out of this because it's not gonna be a quick fix. And that can actually reap more shame on someone when we think we've gotta put these Bible verse band-aids

on or you just need to dot dot. Like there's that actually we are driving people further into isolation and further into shame which is going to only feed depression.

Brenda (37:44.135)

I was just thinking as you were talking about the need for support, you know, just the power of presence, the power of community. I know as a young mom, I don't know what I would have done without my weekly small group, raise my children with this community of women from in utero, and they're still a part of my prayer team, praying for my children, loving my children, now my grandchildren.

But I'm wondering in a day, you know, an age that's so connected, quote, unquote, you know, what do you think are some of the challenges for mothers? Do you think mothers are more isolated today? And maybe what are some of the unique challenges to this generation of moms that contribute to their depression?

Christine Chappell (38:24.832)

Well, I think probably the quickest answer that comes to the top of my mind is the onset of an introduction of social media. Even when I had my first child in 2006, there wasn't even Facebook at that time. And so I wasn't, well, I actually wasn't even a believer at that time either. So there's this new pressure now, or at least this new...

Avenue now where it can help. Hey, look, social media can help moms to be connected in a way that is accessible to them for the season of life that they're in. So whether they're weary and they physically can't go out of the house because they're taking care of a newborn or they have, like Alex, you mentioned a chronic illness. Sometimes chronic illness causes us to be physically isolated from others for a time or even for a lifetime in some instances.

And so social media definitely has its benefits, but I think at the same time, one of the risks of social media and using that as our main source of connectivity is how transparent and connected can you be doing life on life with someone in the fullness of a discipleship relationship, which is not just tweeting a sentence or posting a helpful article or posting this picture of your kid, but it's really, we have...

There's just no replacing in-person face-to-face conversation where someone that you're talking to can actually hold you or can offer you a tissue while you're crying or give you a shoulder to lean on or they can make you some sandwich, you know, or give you some water. I mean, Jesus talks about how important it is that we get our hands involved in the service of people who are hurting.

Brenda (39:59.196)

Yes.

Christine Chappell (40:18.852)

I mean, he touched lepers. He didn't just only speak words and then healing came. He touched people. Same thing with social media. We're not just speaking online and encouragements are happening, although they certainly can. But there's something about being present with the body of Christ that brings mutual encouragement. Because the people who are helping despondent moms...

also need despondent moms for their own sanctification. It's not just, oh, despondent moms need help. It's now we need people who are suffering to also encourage us in our own faith because we see them wrestling. We see how God is sustaining them. We see that it's not the gospel isn't just for people who are strong and steady. Like the gospel is specifically for those who cannot help themselves. But that's why it's good news. You know, and we even...

Those who are stronger, bearing with the failings of those who are weak, I don't know what scripture that is. And I'm not saying that people who are in depression are weak in themselves, but they are experiencing weakness, right? The brokenness, you know? And so I think it is just really important. We can't replace or substitute in-person, face-to-face, flesh-on interactions with one another.

because somebody on my social media friend can't come over and watch my kids for me so that I can have a shower. For instance, I had a friend, actually the week of my hospitalization, we were brand new to South Carolina and I didn't have any friends. We had yet to connect with the church because we were fresh off the RV, as you could say, in this new area. And thankfully,

one of my spiritual moms, I affectionately called her from California, had a friend in our area and she called that friend. And that friend who didn't even know me, right? She watched our kids so that my husband could take us to the emergency room. You can't get that on social media, right? You can't get that person who has no idea who you are.

Christine Chappell (42:33.804)

who has maybe exchanged a couple of greetings with you on a phone, right? But they're gonna be at your house in an hour so that you can handle a family emergency because you are a part of the body of Christ. You can't get that, right? Unless you have these real in-person relationships. And that is one way where, you know, that was a blessing to us in our moment of need and the mercy of God in that week was.

to surround us with people like you said, Brenda, who could be there in the flesh and be a manifestation of God's grace and love for us in that moment.

Brenda (43:16.972)

Christine, I think that's so powerful.

Again, we just talk about the power of presence, you know, Jesus with flesh on, and I'm just reminded that anybody who is a mother...

probably know somebody who's in the stage of mothering behind them. So I think about just how we need perspective. So much of, I know for me, that has been helpful is to have mothers who have gone before me that have given me hope in Jesus. Not that hope that my children are all gonna be okay or be exactly who I think they should be or want them to be. But then also, I just like what a challenge for the church to be the church. That there are things, a lot of things that we're not gonna get

and from social media and with all the advice that's out there and all the great resources and to your point it's all very wonderful. A lot of it's wonderful some of it's not and it's also very overwhelming. I know just in talking to my daughter you know some simple things I think back in the day we you'd have like two camps and you'd kind of pick your camp and get in it and now there's and this isn't a bad thing but there's all this gray in between but there's so many more voices speaking and I think that can be confusing and so that's why we need some real mamas who we trust who are seeing their

lives unfold before us.

Brenda (44:33.891)

And then those people who are willing to show up at our doorsteps and to be that human touch for us in a time that is really, really hard. You said something, motherhood, it basically does turn your world upside down. It is so life-altering. And it's interesting because we take that for granted because it's such a normal part of being human. You have a family.

And I think we take for granted just the absolute undoing a lot of times of a person that it can be. And then add to that, I was watching a Netflix documentary on Minimalist and one of the things they were just talking about is that social media just broadens out our ability to see so many more things to be fearful about and to be envious of and all the things. So it used to be that we were just in our little world and you had just a limited amount

and the limited amount of knowing different philosophies or even material kind of things. And now it's just so much more. And I think it just adds to the overwhelmingness. So we need real people in our lives who have done real life, who we've seen really struggle and who are willing to show up and provide real help for us. Yeah. Well.

Alex (45:57.217)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and when you were talking Brenda, I was thinking about...

if we're going to be those people who show up that way, we are going to have to hold on to the hope we talked about earlier for ourselves because when we enter into someone else's world who's struggling with depression, sometimes they're saying things that are in our own heads and we're

Alex (46:31.196)

hope, who can wait on the Lord, and who can get comfortable with some of our darkest thoughts being expressed in the room with us. And that means I think that we have to hold on to faith and hope and love in a way that allows somebody to say what we what Job says, you know, words for the wind, to

Alex (47:01.016)

and be willing to even acknowledge the sadness, the anger, the sorrow, the hopelessness that's in our own heart, or we won't be able to sit. We won't be able to be a presence that actually offers comfort.

Christine Chappell (47:16.392)

Yeah, as you're talking Alex, I'm reminded of a book from Zach Eswine called Spurgeon Sorrows and he really helps us to think about the kind of hope we offer to people who are walking through depression and the reality that we don't want to respond with songs of cheerful optimism, right? We don't want to sing songs to a heavy heart as Proverbs 25, 20.

Alex (47:24.36)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (47:39.57)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right.

Brenda (47:39.997)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (47:44.384)

tells us and that offering hope to someone who's depressed in a dark season is going to come across as unrealistic. And he writes, I'm reading this quote now, he says, if it fails to, quote, match the depths of the wound and the misery of her pain. And so Alex, when you're talking about, you know, that we even as ourselves to be friends or counselors or disciples of someone who's walking through depression, we need to recognize that the Bible...

speaks to the depths of her wounds and the misery of her pain. We don't need to be afraid to use the language that the Bible gives us to use when we are in these depths. The Bible, the scriptures, they are a mirror into our souls. They give us the words that we need. It was God's mercy to us to give us the words that we need when we can't even articulate how we're feeling in ourselves.

to not acknowledge that, to not acknowledge that, you know, over a third of the Psalms are Psalms of lament, which, you know, if you, I like to say, well, then it would make sense that more than a third of our life is going to probably be spent going through things to which we will lament, right? And that's not abnormal. That's a normal part of the normal Christian life, is that lament is gonna be a big part of it. Suffering's gonna be a big.

Alex (48:57.546)

Mm-hmm.

Christine Chappell (49:08.736)

part of it. This is how God teaches us obedience is through our suffering. That's how he taught Jesus obedience. I think it's in Hebrews talks about that Jesus learned obedience through what he suffered. We're not going to go a different way than the master. We're going to follow his steps. And so I think just that could even as caregivers or friends or supporters give us some breathing room to say, you know what, I don't have to have all my stuff together. It's okay.

to be weak in my own self, right? Cause I'm not having this person depend on me and that I have all the answers and I have all the ability. I've got this all figured out, right? I'm just simply here to encourage her as she goes, that there is a God who's got this all figured out, that he went before her through this darkness so that he will go with her through this darkness. And if she prays songs of lament,

and has these hard questions and doubts as so many people in the scriptures do. And so oftentimes as they're expressing these thoughts and questions and wrestling with these hard things, God meets them mercifully and engages them in a way that brings light to their situation. And so that's what we are trying to point sufferers to is that is a realistic hope. It's not realistic for me to say.

Oh, the sun will come out tomorrow. Oh, this will just, you know, in a couple of weeks, you'll feel better about things or, you know, whatever it is, right? We want to have this realistic hope which says, I'm sorry you're suffering. This is hard for you and it hurts me to see you in this pain. You know, let's lament together. Cause I'm broken too. And we both need a savior whose hope is strong enough for these kinds of sorrows.

And so I think it is just, I love how the scriptures give us that. We don't have to be strong and steady in ourselves. We're pointing people to a strong and steady Savior who has promised to be with them always, even to the end of the age.

Brenda (51:19.247)

Yeah, and I want to add something to this conversation just for those of us who have grown children.

And sometimes the tendency is to look back and you see your mistakes and you can be, and you see some of the outcomes with your children and you think I don't have anything that I could help a young mom with who's struggling because look at my children, look at my motherhood. And for over the last decade, one of our children has had significant struggle and it has been a real point of heartache for us and for me as a mom in particular. And I think there was a time that I thought, well, as soon as this trial is over, then I'll be the mom who can encourage other moms.

Alex (51:56.145)

Mm-hmm

Brenda (51:56.493)

When we get to the other side and I can show this amazing story of how God has done this redemptive work and what the Lord has just shown me along the way that my best ministry moments have been weeping with another mom because I get it, knowing what it's like to be in the depths of despairing faith as a mother. And I just...

Just what you said, it's not pointing to my story and the tragedy of it, the difficulty of it, that ultimately is what's gonna give somebody hope. It's seeing that God has sustained me and that he has sustained me through many tears, which have included anger and fear and sadness and sometimes screaming at the top of my lungs. You know, supplying people around me,

how beneficial that has been for me. I don't even know how, you know, I would have walked this journey that I've been on apart from so many amazing women who have come and surrounded me with their love and their prayers. And so I just think that...

part of what you're saying, Alex, you know, we can look at our mothering, quote-unquote, failures or the disappointments with our children and see that as a liability in our ability to enter in with people and it's actually our greatest asset. And we need to remember that. And so I just really want to challenge again those of us who have grown children and in some ways maybe facing some of the greatest sadness of our parenting, but also the greatest

Alex (53:19.12)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (53:35.681)

that we can be such great encouragement. And I hope that we will be looking for the mothers who are coming behind us, that we can be a pillar of hope that God will sustain us and continue to be with us. His presence will be enough. His promises will get us there. And his provision for now and for the future will keep us until the end. And it really will.

And you know, Christian, look at your struggle, and I can say this for mine, I know that Alex with her chronic health issues, none of us would choose these things. You know, if we could rewrite it, I'd love to have a pain-free life. I'd love for it to be heaven on earth right now, but it's not. But at the same time, when I look at what I've gained in Christ, when I look at what I've gained in coming to know God through the incredible comfort he gives, I actually wouldn't change it.

Christine Chappell (54:30.396)

Isn't it so interesting? As you were saying that, what popped into my head was, yeah, as we look back at the different sufferings we face and the hard times we've gone through, we wouldn't have chose that.

But Jesus did choose that for himself. For our sake, he chose the worst possible story, the worst kind of trauma, the worst kind of everything, right? I mean, he chose to come and be betrayed by friends. He chose to come step down from heaven to be weak and helpless for a time.

He chose to come and bear the weight of our sin and our sorrows and do that all perfectly so that we didn't have to have that burden as we go through our motherhood journey. We don't have the burden of being perfect as we experience our sorrows and motherhood. And I just, I am emotional thinking about how merciful that was of the Lord who knew that we would need that kind of burden relief.

It's not burden relief of my problem has gone away. It's burden relief of having to suffer in this broken world perfectly because that was the requirement before Christ. It's perfection. No one comes to the Father if they're not perfect, but God knew we wouldn't be able to do it. And so He sent someone, He sent a son, a light from on high to be that for us so that we could know that even as we struggle.

And even as we wrestle, that we have been freed from the burden to be perfect and that we have hope that he has overcome the darkness for us. And he chose to do that. He willingly volunteered to lay down his life for his sheep. But more than that, he took it back up again three days later so that we could know that darkness doesn't have the last say. And so it just really makes me thankful for the reality. Because you're right, I wouldn't have chose all that.

Christine Chappell (56:42.996)

But to think that Christ did choose misery and agony because of his love is just a really encouraging reminder for me even today.

Alex (56:56.686)

Well Christine, this is just such a rich discussion and I'm sure Brenda and I could.

ask you questions for hours because of our own stories and for those we walk with. But we just hope that our listeners will get your book and will really be able to recognize the struggle in their own hearts and then be motivated to look for those who may be hiding, may be isolated, may be suffering with depression alone. And so the book is Midnight,

walking with God through depression and motherhood. And they can also find you on the podcast, Hope and Help. And so thank you so much for joining us today and for talking about this difficult and, as Brenda said, just very pervasive topic.

Brenda (57:49.371)

Yeah, thank you Christine. Yeah, it's been awesome.

Christine Chappell (57:49.728)

Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Brenda. Thank you, Alex.