S14 Ep. 6 / Inhale God's Truth, Exhale Anxiety
Alex Kocher (00:02.36)
Well, we're excited today to get to welcome someone whose work just immediately resonated with the heart behind conversational counseling.
Jennifer Tucker is here, and she's an author and an artist who really just writes honestly about suffering, about prayer and healing, and learning to experience the presence of God every day in our lives. Her books and her artwork just feel really deeply personal and accessible. And I think she does a great job of building bridges to ancient Christian practices in a way that's practical.
that gives insight into the body and to human experience and to make these practices feel approachable for our everyday lives. So, Jennifer, we're so grateful to have you with us today. As you know, we are a discipleship and counseling podcast ministry, and so one of the things that resonated so deeply with us about your work is that, like you, we're not trying to invent new ways to communicate with God, but we do want people, excuse me, to engage with him more fully.
And two of the ways that we have learned to do that is by recovering these ancient rhythms and practices that believers have been using for centuries, and also by understanding just how God designed our bodies and how they commune with our souls so that we can be more aware of his presence. So it's a long introduction to say welcome and thank you for joining us today.
Brenda Payne (01:27.344)
Ha ha
Jennifer (01:29.105)
Thank you. thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here.
Alex Kocher (01:34.018)
Hm.
Brenda Payne (01:34.745)
Yeah. Well, one of the things that Alex and I know is that when you begin to talk to people about ancient practices and embodied practices, you get some pushback, particularly in the some some Christian circles especially where that seems very foreign.
Jennifer (01:53.405)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (01:54.798)
it can come across we say woo-woo. It can come across as we're woo-woo, new age, mystical. So right off the shoot we were just saying, how do we begin to calm the fears and nerves of any listeners who might be going, What are y'all talking about?
Jennifer (01:57.309)
Mm-hmm, mm hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (01:57.647)
Mm.
Jennifer (02:06.32)
Sure. Sure. Yeah. Well, to be honest, I had not heard of any of these practices for most of my Christian life. I grew up in a variety of Baptist churches and different evangelical type churches where we did not have liturgical type pr prayer practices. There wasn't really I had not heard of contemplative prayer.
breath prayer, lectio divina, or, you know, any of those types of prayer practices. Prayer to me for a long time was just a checklist. It's one thing I I just I'm supposed to do as a good Christian, like reading my Bible every day, pray every day, do all these things to be a good Christian. It was very
Brenda Payne (02:47.674)
Yeah.
Jennifer (02:50.698)
in a lot of ways, legalistic. That was my own perfectionism and my own, you know, my own in nature there pulling in and made it very legalistic. I just have to follow all these rules and then I'm a good Christian. so yeah, it so learning about opening my myself up to these ancient prayer practices, learning about them kind of opened a doorway to experiencing God in a way that I had never experienced before. And it came at a time in my life that was very
Alex Kocher (02:55.086)
Mm.
Jennifer (03:20.124)
Difficult, very dark, very like my wrote prayers, my little checklist of prayers did not hack it. Like that was not, I God was not there. Like he was not hearing me. He is not present, he's not answering these prayers. Why isn't he coming through? You know, I do pray every day. I do read my Bible. I go to church, I do all the things, but why is everything a mess? Like why is why is my daughter suffering? Why is why am I struggling so much with this fear, anxiety?
Brenda Payne (03:42.586)
Mm.
Jennifer (03:50.091)
and I I struggled for a while. and it really was through my daughter's own journey with her mental health, which mental health in alone was something new to me. Like I had not really, to me, any struggle with my mental health, any struggle with anxiety, any struggle with depression, any struggle with those type things meant I either didn't trust God enough, I didn't pray the right way or pray enough, I didn't, you know, have the right kind of faith or enough faith. So I had to work on that because
Alex Kocher (04:00.961)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (04:01.103)
Mm, yeah.
Brenda Payne (04:13.113)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (04:13.771)
Mm.
Jennifer (04:19.898)
I shouldn't be afraid. I shouldn't be anxious. I shouldn't be depressed if I really trusted God the way that I was supposed to. So I sh carried a lot of shame. I buried it down. I did not face it. I didn't admit it. I didn't bring it to the surface or even contemplate what's really going on. I just kind of ignored it. But that obviously
did not go well for me. So I ended up managing my anxiety in ways that were not healthy. Very controlling, very overworking, perfectionist, people pleasing. Like it was just I had to control everything in my life and every one in my life in order to keep those feelings kind of as much at ease as possible. And that did not that can only go so far. You can only do that for so long. and so it was actually when my daughter began having panic attacks, severe panic attacks and anxiety.
Brenda Payne (04:45.479)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (05:06.427)
Mm, mm hmm.
Brenda Payne (05:06.585)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (05:14.026)
and in the process of getting her help and seeking ways to help her is when I really kind of had to get very honest with myself about my own struggles and how I have anxiety and I have clinical depression and I go through see I had to get real honest and come to know what those labels really mean and what does that mean for my body. So, but I still for a while kept.
Spiritual side over here, physical side over here. Doctors are over here, and then faith is over here. But what changed everything for me was realizing that it's all interconnected. Our body, mind, soul is all made by God, all fully integrated in in amazing ways. so these practices that integrate the body, these embodied practices, really are.
Alex Kocher (05:46.699)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (05:53.548)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (06:09.068)
In scripture, this is not something anti-Bible, this is not new age, this is centuries old practices that Christians have been praying and doing for a long time. Now, in our a lot of our American churches, we don't, we lost some of those things. Like we we didn't, we stopped practicing them for whatever reason. But that doesn't mean they aren't still very valid and very helpful.
Brenda Payne (06:10.829)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (06:36.356)
In our modern day life. Like these practices like breath prayer, which is so simple but so powerful, are great for our stressful, busy, everyday lives now, just as they were centuries ago when Christians practiced it. And what it does is it integrates the way God made us, our bodies, to have with our nervous systems that they're doing what they're supposed to do. God made them to help protect us, and you know, it's triggering alarms like, this is not safe or something is
Brenda Payne (06:38.595)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (07:06.042)
not right and so we get anxious and for me my heart starts racing, I get shaky, I start sweating. so recognizing those symptoms of anxiety in my own self and what my body is doing and then being able to intentionally turn my thoughts toward a truth that I can cling to. Now, is this really a dangerous situation? Am I really in danger and what's something I can cling to? And God gave us our breath. I mean he breath is our source of life. When we stop breathing, we stop living, and
Even from the very beginning, God breathed the breath of life into Adam. Breath is such an integral part of who we are and how He made us. But it has such a power that to connect what's happening in our body to what's going on in our brain and calming that nervous system when we take those deep breaths. And when I discovered that, that was one of the first things my daughter's doctor told her was breathing is the bridge between the brain and the body. I had never heard that before. I had no idea that if we just slow deep breaths. And so I found.
Alex Kocher (07:51.125)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (08:02.127)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (08:05.094)
God helped me. when I do this, my anxiety eases. And then as I was researching other ideas and how to help calm anxiety, I ran across breath prayers. And I'm like, my goodness, this is taking a very physical practical practice of just deep breathing and combining it with scripture, with simple, easy prayers that just turn my mind to God. And when I combined those two, I was like, This is it. This this is what I needed. it was like some missing thing that
Brenda Payne (08:32.249)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (08:34.876)
I was like, this is so simple, but it was so helpful. And it really when my daughter was hospitalized, then a couple years later, and I literally that was the highest anxiety I'd ever felt. I was terrified. The road that was unfolding before us, I had no idea how to walk. I did not know how to deal with this. And this was at a time where we had I had been praying for healing, praying for some kind of relief. But everything kept getting harder, harder, harder until she was hospitalized and
Brenda Payne (08:37.625)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (09:00.643)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (09:04.098)
hooked up to heart monitors, a nurse in the room with us 24 hours, and the diagnosis they were giving us and the the path ahead looked so overwhelming. And I I didn't have any more words to pray. I had nothing left in me. Like God, I don't know where you are and I don't know how to find you here. And I just feel too overwhelmed. But I remembered breath prayers. And so I just started breathing. As I laid on that couch that night, it was like 3 a.m and I just started breathing in.
Brenda Payne (09:20.27)
Yeah.
Jennifer (09:33.319)
The Lord is my shepherd. And then exhaling, I have all that I need. And I just kept doing that over and over and over. And as I repeated it and as I breathed deep, I felt this peace wash over me that I can't explain, except it was the Holy Spirit reminding me, I'm here. You're not alone. I'll be with you. And as I that didn't mean the anxiety went away, because the next day more doctors' things, more things happening, and I anxiety rose again. But I would walk the halls of that hospital.
Brenda Payne (09:57.786)
Sure.
Jennifer (10:02.31)
Just breathing and praying and and those are the only prayers I prayed for those twenty one days that we were there or nineteen days that we were there. and that's what flipped for me because I'm like this kept me tethered to God. It kept me tethered to a truth that I didn't need these fancy prayers. I didn't need to have any answers because I had God was with me, and that's all I needed to know, and that's all I needed to cling to. And so that simple practice of breath prayer, which again, not my idea.
Centuries old, it's been around for a long time. I was like, this is so powerful. Why are more people not talking about this? Why did I not know about this? You know? So as you know, as I kept, you know, life kept going and things kept being hard and new challenges and new things and breath prayer continues to be the tether that that tethers me to him. And then I've discovered other practices like Lectio Divino. It's
Brenda Payne (10:58.265)
Wait, I'm I'm gonna stop you I'm gonna stop you right there just because no, you're good. You you've said so much good stuff right there. Let's stop at breath prayer and unpack some of this. First of all, let me just say that yes, I think one of the things we have to realize, even when we go back to our Jewish roots, how much ritual and rhythm and embodied practices are in the Jewish faith. I mean, we have the temple, we have the sacrifices, we have all the feasts, and that is something that is largely I think
Jennifer (10:59.398)
yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm telling you, I ramble. I'm gonna keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me stop. Sure, sure.
Jennifer (11:15.378)
Absolutely.
Brenda Payne (11:27.309)
lost or minimized in the evangelical world for sure. So I I think things that are some things that are uncomfortable to us because they're new to us do not make them wrong or sinful. And I think that's just an important distinction to say. It's like, is this just not part of my tradition? And so it feels uncomfortable to me, or is this actually wrong or sinful? And and to your point, I mean it shouldn't surprise any of us that God has given us so much healing capacity
Jennifer (11:40.732)
Right, right.
Jennifer (11:49.008)
Right.
Brenda Payne (11:56.046)
within the bodies he gave us. Right? We have an immune system for when something physically goes wrong. I just had a terrible cold last week and my immune system was able to kick in. And so to think to to recognize that wow, in the genius of God, that he would provide some ways that our that our bodies would actually be a means to help assist what's anguishing our soul. And
Jennifer (11:56.199)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (12:16.741)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Brenda Payne (12:20.949)
Not apart from God, but actually to lead us to a greater and deeper communion and appreciation of who God is and how He's made us. So just highlighting, you know, the glory of that. And and I want to just also say, and then Alex, I'll let you chime in. But you know, I think what you've described is such a common human experience for a lot of Christians. We are taught how to pray, and it does become part of our devotional or quiet time. It's beautiful, but
Jennifer (12:27.578)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (12:49.121)
I think sometimes what I have found in my own life is that it has taken deep suffering to move me to deep prayer. And there is something about suffering that pushes us to commune with God and to cry out and to look for and to beg and to seek wherever we can to say, God, it it's not theoretical anymore. It becomes survival. And I know Alex has her own survival story. I've got my own survival story.
Jennifer (12:57.233)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (13:08.572)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (13:13.01)
Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (13:18.721)
And one of the sweetest parts of suffering that we probably would all say looking back is how deeply it did drive us into deeper communion with God in prayer that could not have happened any other way. And and we have said before, and I've often said that suffering changes us in a way that transformation and sin and conviction does not change us. There's something about suffering and the way we cry out to God in desperation, the way he comforts and meets us.
Alex Kocher (13:26.817)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (13:48.452)
That just changes us. I think it just there's such a tenderness, such a sweetness, such a an experiential understanding of his heart for us when we suffer so deeply and he comforts so deeply. And not just once, to your point. If you have a long struggle every day, every year, for decades, he comes. He never tires. He's he's not a friend that says, We talked about this a hundred times, just get over it and shut up. You know, get get on, move on. He is that friend and that father that will sit with us in our pain. And so
Jennifer (14:06.14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (14:13.308)
Right. Right.
Brenda Payne (14:18.617)
There's something, yeah, very, very deep about that and you have experienced that and I love that because you've been faithful to Steward, your experience of that suffering in your works. So Alex, I'm gonna toss it back to you. What are maybe some of the thoughts you have?
Alex Kocher (14:32.362)
Well, I'm gonna ask it as a question, Jennifer, because I remember s similar way, in a period of not anxiety but grief is when I discovered these practices. And and I and I taught them to a group of women, particularly breath prayer was the one that I had the most pushback on.
Jennifer (14:40.87)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (14:54.854)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (14:55.16)
And the pushback was that it felt to we used the word woo-woo earlier, but it felt like like new age chanting or meditation. It felt like vain repetition. So how do you speak back to that concern?
Jennifer (15:08.594)
Sure. Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (15:15.568)
Yeah, well I think I think any prayer can become that. when we make it about performance or perfection rather than presence. Because really prayer is about being present with the presence of God. He is with us right here, right now, in this moment. And so breath prayer kind of paying attention to our breath brings us to this moment, just breathing in and out, that simple practice and recognizing the prayer part recognizes that God's here with me in this moment. So it's about
Alex Kocher (15:19.275)
Sure.
Brenda Payne (15:19.395)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (15:24.886)
Mm.
Jennifer (15:45.127)
What's the focus of our mind? What are we turning our thoughts to? What's the orientation of our heart as we pray? Because sure, a breathbur can become just just ro repet repetition, just a a lot of the New Age and Eastern religious practices practice deep breathing, they practice meditation, they practice these things that this that Bible, our Bible actually tells us meditate on his word day and night. These types of practices are in scripture.
But the Eastern religious practices, the way they do it, it's the point is, the purpose is to empty the mind of all thought, to kind of turn inward to self to find meaning within. And so I think the the critical difference is that we're not looking within ourselves to find the answers or to find healing or to find that peace. We're not trying to empty our mind or cleanse it of all thoughts until we're just kind of in this state of nirvana.
Brenda Payne (16:23.172)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (16:42.554)
What we're doing as Christians, and this is where we have to be intentional in our breath prayers and any kind of prayer that we pray, where are my thoughts centered on? Where is my orientation of my heart? Am I looking inward to try to find some peace in there somewhere? Or am I turning my mind toward the one who is the source of my peace, to the Prince of Peace Himself, to God? And that's where true peace comes from, not from within ourselves, but from recognizing his presence with us, even when we feel anything but peace.
Alex Kocher (17:05.462)
Mm. Mm.
Brenda Payne (17:05.572)
Yeah.
Jennifer (17:12.242)
peace. He is peace and he gives us that peace. And that's a supernatural kind of peace that the Holy Spirit gives us. But it is about, and we have to be intentional about it, even with breath prayer and the repetition, what it does. And I mean that's how we memorize scripture. That's how we we repeat it, right? We have to say it over and over and over again. And that's kind of the point of rituals and rhythms is that we're doing the same thing over and over and over again because we don't get it just with one time. Like my brain, I have to repeat
Alex Kocher (17:13.025)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (17:22.261)
Right.
Brenda Payne (17:29.143)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (17:38.71)
So true.
Brenda Payne (17:39.054)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (17:41.347)
over and over and I still like I forgot you know so the rhythms spiritual rhythms those rituals that like from the old testament like I think we've we've lost something when we lost those things because I think God knows we need those consistent reminders like Advent is a wonderful yearly reminder Lent is a wonderful annual reminder those seasons kind of just return our hearts and reorient our hearts toward God
Brenda Payne (17:43.065)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (17:53.508)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (17:54.806)
We have.
Brenda Payne (18:06.126)
Mm.
Jennifer (18:09.948)
and toward the truth that's in his word. And that's what breath prayer can do. And it helps hide those his word in our heart as we repeat, because the breath prayers are taken straight from scripture, at least the ones that I pray, straight from scripture. So I'm repeating God's own words. When I don't have words to pray, his word gives me words I can pray and I can say to repeat truth that my soul needs in those moments. And so by repeating those truths, I can more easily.
Alex Kocher (18:17.196)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (18:28.724)
Mm.
Jennifer (18:37.756)
bring them to memory when another hard time comes or when I'm in out out running errands or something. Because it's tucked in my heart. And that's what you know, so the repetition has a purpose. It's not meaningless. It's not to empty our mind. It's to continue to turn and return our heart toward truth. So that's what I would say.
Alex Kocher (18:40.438)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (18:48.664)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (18:54.988)
Yeah, and I think it I think it bears saying that I love the idea we're we're not emptying our minds, we're focusing our minds. And worry and grief itself are repetitive, right? We have these repetitive thoughts when we're in yeah, we are meditating on something. So it's yeah, so what we're doing is directing that meditation to God's words. That's great.
Jennifer (19:07.698)
Absolutely.
Brenda Payne (19:10.04)
We're meditating. Yeah.
Jennifer (19:11.308)
Absolutely. What are we meditating on? Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes. We're shifting those thoughts, you know, and I know you guys know this that I loved when I learned about neuroplasticity and how we can change our brain and those those automatic responses, 'cause I would automatically s respond for so many years, automatically just spiral into panic, automatically spiral into deep worry and just freaking out about everything that was happening. Like it didn't take much to trigger me to just kind of spiral.
Brenda Payne (19:18.828)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (19:26.314)
Mm.
Jennifer (19:43.325)
But as I've practiced breath prayer and as I've trained my brain to just when I feel those symptoms coming to turn my thoughts straight to God instead, it's made it easier for me to do that. Now when something happens or I start feeling anxious again, I can more easily make that turn because it's become more of a pattern and that repetition is what helps create that pattern.
Alex Kocher (19:53.612)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (19:54.018)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (20:02.179)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think Romans so clearly speaks to that, that when we yield our body to righteousness, right, it produces righteousness and that God has made us
Jennifer (20:06.99)
Mm mm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (20:12.14)
To actually develop godly habits that produce good fruit. And I was in Philippians four today. And of course, we know the church in Philippi was under, you know, had a lot of persecution from the the Roman emperor government and all of that, and then the Ju Judaizers that were coming in. And what does Paul tell them? He says, Rejoice in the Lord always. The Lord is near, going back to being reminding them of the present Lord. And then he says, Think on these things. So, you know, and that that
Jennifer (20:34.574)
Yeah, that's absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (20:38.122)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (20:40.662)
Repetition. He didn't give us a hundred things. I mean, he gave us some principles to say, like, think on just the beauty and the wonder and the glory and the praiseworthiness of the Lord. And I think we also have to remember that Hebrews tells us that God's word is living and active. And so what may seem very rote to us is the Holy Spirit is taking and he loves to use his word and he loves to use it to encourage us and to
Jennifer (20:44.696)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (20:53.54)
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (21:00.596)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (21:03.138)
buoy us and to exalt Jesus in our hearts. And so there are ways that God's word is, I think, working in us that we aren't even aware of when we just allow that focus to be his word and his words then allow us to focus on him. So, well, Jennifer, I'm gonna move us along a little bit in the conversation.
Jennifer (21:11.481)
Absolutely.
Jennifer (21:18.098)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Brenda Payne (21:23.69)
Your second book is present in prayer and through it you guide readers through the scripture meditation called Lectio Divino and it's actually Alex's favorite method of devotional is what she uses regularly and it's just a great as we know prayer meditation tools. But can you explain to our listeners a little bit about what it is and how you have found it useful?
Jennifer (21:26.067)
huh.
Jennifer (21:36.901)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (21:45.78)
Yeah, and this is another one of those ancient practices that have been practiced for centuries. But I found it I think not it's not to minimize like the importance of Bible study and studying scripture and understanding the historical, you know, and contextual
realities of of scripture as we read. I think that's really, really, really important. This is does not replace Bible study. This does not replace other forms of scripture study. I think all of it's important. None of these practices are a end all, like it's not a one size fits all or single answer to everything. But Lectio Divina has been very helpful for me in meditating on scripture, learning how to meditate on scripture. Meditation in and of itself is helpful to me to be still and to just quiet.
Alex Kocher (22:16.62)
Mm.
Jennifer (22:33.431)
my body, quiet my mind, quiet my soul. And when I do it in the presence of God, by meditating on scripture, I'm inviting that presence of God with me. Like I'm recognizing He's with me in this stillness. I don't have to do, I don't have to perform, I don't have to perfect, I don't have to make all this happen. I don't have to make some kind of feeling come up. Lectio Divina takes a small passage of scripture.
And you read it. It's an again another repetitive type of practice, but for me it's so helpful because like you said, the word of God is living and and active. And as I read the same passage, I might get something out of it one time that the next time I get something totally different from it. The Holy Spirit speaks to me in a totally different way. So Lectio Divina is just Latin for divine reading. You're just reading this in a way that you're going to metabolize what it says, not just quick little bites of scripture reading.
Alex Kocher (23:15.783)
Mm.
Jennifer (23:30.511)
speed reading through just to check it off a list. It's taking time to sit with a small passage and even it might just be a small phrase or even a single word that you read. And just sitting with that and sitting with that word or sitting with that phrase and just opening your heart to hear the Holy Spirit, to listen to the voice of God. Not in an audible way. But we know when we're
Brenda Payne (23:32.206)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (23:51.139)
Mm.
Jennifer (23:55.108)
open to the Holy Spirit, He impresses our hearts and helps guide our thoughts. And we're turning our thoughts present in prayers about what we do with all those thoughts, those racing thoughts, those anxious thoughts that go all different directions. How do we help? How how do we jump on the right kind of trains of thoughts? And how do we keep our minds focused and refocused? Because our brain does what our brain does and it's gonna think and you're gonna it's gonna race and it's gonna go here and there and how to
Like scripture tells us, think on these things, whatever is true, whatever is lovely, whatever. So I kind of go into each one of those and focusing in on meditating on just a small little bit and what what is the thing that God has for me within this one little passage. And I consider how I'm feeling in my body, what my emotions are, what my circumstances are, and how God is wanting to speak to me through this little passage into my right now life and recognize he's with me.
Alex Kocher (24:38.08)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (24:49.731)
Mm.
Jennifer (24:51.299)
Even in this, whether it's and you know, I may walk away not really having any tick big takeaway, and that's okay. The point of the practice is to be present with God, is to just be still and be present right here, right now, and to turn and return my mind to God right here with me. And He's right there in scripture. These are His words to me. What is He telling me in this? And so it's just a very simple.
Brenda Payne (24:57.346)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (25:13.633)
Mm.
Jennifer (25:17.127)
This one takes a little more practice, I think, because we're not used to sitting still for any length of time or being quiet or not. Our prayers being typically mine tend to ramble and just give God all the things that I have to say to him and all the things I want and all my requests. But this type of prayer is a lot of listening, of just sitting in the stillness and opening the ears of my heart to hear his voice through his word. And so that's kind of what what it is.
Brenda Payne (25:22.316)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (25:28.908)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (25:35.397)
Mm, mm.
Brenda Payne (25:41.08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (25:41.269)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think the that's what I loved most about Lectio Divina when I learned it. I felt like I don't maybe not for the first time, but surely for the most consistent. It's been the most consistent way that I have felt like reading scripture is an interaction and a conversation with the Holy Spirit and not just reading it, turning it over in my mind and trying to figure something out. But it's almost like really adding in those pauses and those questions just helped me figure.
Jennifer (25:59.624)
Mm hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (26:13.179)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (26:13.621)
like I'm making room for the Holy Spirit in that space and it feels so much more relational to me to read the Bible that way. Right. And that's big. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (26:17.895)
Mm-hmm.
absolutely. Yeah, 'cause we're not reading for information. We're reading for transformation. Like it's not about just trying to gather as much facts in the scripture as we can get. It's really about being transformed through his word and being present with him as we read his word. So yeah, it's it's a totally different way to approach scripture for me. It changed it changed how I approach scripture. So mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (26:21.112)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (26:24.79)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (26:35.379)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (26:47.785)
Yeah. So like the Divina do you wanna s do you wanna talk about that, Brenda?
Brenda Payne (26:48.174)
Mm-hmm. I think
Brenda Payne (26:53.92)
I was I was just gonna say I think one thing for me is
I think when you sit with the Lord that way, one, there's some mystery in it. And so I think it can feel a little uncomfortable, you know, because again, when you when you come to the scriptures with a little bit more intellectual or academic approach, where, and again, all of that's really important, the historical background and all that, but can become a little bit less devotional. Like, what is how is God speaking to me? And that God delights to meet with me. He delights for me to sit with him. He looks forward to this conversation and this communion that we're having together. so there is a little bit of a mystery in it, and we have to sometimes
Jennifer (27:02.323)
Sure. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (27:02.662)
Uh-huh. Hmm.
Jennifer (27:12.339)
Sure. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (27:18.385)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (27:28.928)
get beyond that if we've been taught to to come to the Bibles with a again maybe more of a study approach and less of a relational or devotional approach. But the other thing it just dawned on me as we were talking is having been to Israel and Turkey and gone to some of the synagogues and places of worship and from you know the first century church
Alex Kocher (27:30.195)
Mm.
Jennifer (27:30.269)
Sure.
Jennifer (27:35.347)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (27:47.959)
and or before is that they didn't have the whole Bible. They didn't even usually have like the whole Old Testament, you know, the Torah. They had pieces. And when you get to New Testament, they had one letter that was being passed around. And so it's kinda interesting how we can look on and go, Well
Jennifer (27:51.015)
Right.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.
Brenda Payne (28:02.53)
How could the book of Philippians be enough if you just meditate on that day and night for you know for the next 20 years? Well, literally, that right, that might they might have had the book of Philippians and maybe the letter to the Ephesians. And then I'm thinking about in Philippi, there wasn't even a real Jewish, there wasn't a synagogue, there was a house of prayer. You had to have like at least 10 or more people. And so there was very little Jewish influence. Now Paul is coming in, you know, writing letters to the the Philippians and other churches. I guess my point is just I'm sitting here.
Jennifer (28:06.271)
Mm. Be surprised, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (28:27.967)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (28:32.464)
Everyone, like, wow, we are so rich and we are so information oriented. We're we're information junkies. Like, the more I know of God's word, the more I'm gonna be transformed, the more godly I'm gonna be, the more impact I'm gonna have. And that, yeah, it's not true. It's it's not true. Like taking the time to really stop, because again, it's not like you said, just about information as transformation. And we talk a lot about beholding the Lord.
Jennifer (28:37.095)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (28:45.361)
Not necessarily. Yeah, no.
Jennifer (28:57.585)
Yes, yes.
Brenda Payne (28:58.38)
And that beholding is to see his beauty, to see him and his creation and what he's doing in the world and what he's doing in my life and all of those things and and that just takes time to sit and be still and be attentive.
Jennifer (29:01.715)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (29:10.432)
Mm.
Jennifer (29:10.467)
Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because we can read the Bible and not connect to God at all. Like you can read the words and have zero intimacy with God, zero communion with him. And so that's where really taking the time to commune with God because it's it's spending time with him, it's his presence, it's
Alex Kocher (29:16.812)
absolutely. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (29:16.812)
Yes.
Jennifer (29:30.651)
Christ Himself that's going to transform us to be more like Him. That's where the fruit of the Spirit comes from, from that time with Him. You can read your Bible all day long. You can read through your Bible 10 times. But if you haven't communed with Him and really gotten to know His heart and spent time with Him, it's not going to change your life. It's not going to transform what you do and how you walk away from that scripture. Okay, how is this going to impact how I live each day? Because you can know all the facts in the world.
Brenda Payne (29:36.782)
That's right.
Brenda Payne (29:46.413)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (29:49.983)
Mm.
Jennifer (29:59.422)
But doesn't mean you're gonna live it out the way th through the heart of God. So mm hmm. yeah. yeah.
Brenda Payne (30:02.144)
Yes. And let me just say we are all Southern girls. And so we're all in the Bible belt. And we know this very, very well. Right? Like I just think about the number of women that Alex and I counsel and the number of women I'm sure you run into who do know their Bibles well. But really encouraging them to go into a place where they know God well. And
Jennifer (30:17.716)
yeah.
Jennifer (30:23.379)
Exactly. Yes. Yes.
Brenda Payne (30:24.718)
Prayer practices and devotional practices that lead us there are are are helpful tools and ways and means by which we can come more into the an awareness and attendance of the presence of God and not just the rote practice or just the intellectual knowledge.
Jennifer (30:41.871)
Absolutely, yeah.
Alex Kocher (30:42.891)
Yeah, and I w while y'all are talking, I'm thinking that I know a lot of people who are listening have experienced church hurt and Brenda and I have had our own church hurt. And one of the fallouts for me of church hurt is the difficulty of returning to Bible study the way I used to do it. And about a year and a half ago I called a friend and I was really wrestling. I was like, I'm still struggling. Like I still I don't study the Bible in the way that I used to. For my whole life way I used to.
Jennifer (30:49.583)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (30:59.912)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (31:08.679)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Alex Kocher (31:12.845)
And one of the things she said to me was, Alex, I trust that the word of Christ is, the word of God is dwelling in you richly. And these practices.
To me, that's what I connect to these practices is they are ways to help the word of God dwell in me richly. And that means both the scripture and the word himself, Jesus Himself, right? Like it's both and. But just to to kind of keep the that's kind of been one breath where I've had is let the word of
Jennifer (31:36.647)
Yes, yes. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (31:37.518)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (31:46.587)
Sure.
Alex Kocher (31:56.218)
God dwell in me richly. So what does that mean and how do we engage these practices to do that? So so Lectia Divinas is my favorite prayer practice, scripture practice, but your third book is my favorite book.
Jennifer (31:56.862)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Brenda Payne (32:01.123)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (32:08.999)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (32:10.126)
And here it is. I love it too. It's been awesome.
Alex Kocher (32:14.251)
Probably in the first week that I had it, I recommended it to three people because it's so much of the practices that I'm encouraging people in our counseling sessions were using them. And so for our listeners, the third book is called Prayer in Motion, an invitation to be fully present, connect with God, and pray with your whole self. And this this book connects us more to the body, in the practices. And the question I have, Jennifer, is this
Brenda Payne (32:17.934)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (32:22.343)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (32:44.255)
Book feels really timely to me because I think we are so overstimulated, so distracted, and live so much outside of our bodies. So why do you think and how do you think these practices connect us back to an embodied practice of prayer?
Jennifer (32:49.776)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (33:03.673)
Mm-hmm. I'll be honest, this book was the hardest one for me to write. It was supposed to be the second book in the series and I'm like, I need more time because I need to practice this myself a lot longer and I really need to sit with it a while longer. 'Cause
Alex Kocher (33:06.846)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (33:17.771)
Mm.
Jennifer (33:19.171)
I have not always had the best view of my own body. Like my own attitude toward my body has been quite toxic. I've been very unkind to myself. I have judged my body. I have starved my body. I have harmed my body. Like I have done things because I didn't like this body, not because and it was very, very superficial kind of reasons. I think I tend to in our s in our culture, it's so easy.
Alex Kocher (33:23.103)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (33:29.55)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (33:38.83)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (33:39.019)
Mm.
Jennifer (33:46.97)
judge our bodies by comparison or social standards or by this objectification. There's so much self-objectification happening. and so to think of being living more embodied, which is not so much about how our bodies look but how we feel within our body and befriending our body, listening to our body. What is how am I actually feeling because we I ignored physical symptoms and physical cues
Brenda Payne (33:47.256)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:05.134)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:15.475)
Mm.
Jennifer (34:16.093)
For years, because while the body's not important, the soul is what matters. Like this body is just the body, it's not important. My soul is what's eternal. But re actually, God always intended for us to have a body. Like we were meant to be embodied from the beginning of time. God made Adam's body first before he breathed into him the breath of life. His body has always been, we've always been to be embodied, and even in eternity.
Brenda Payne (34:17.166)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:21.31)
Right.
Alex Kocher (34:32.171)
Mm. Great point. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:37.923)
Yeah.
Jennifer (34:42.589)
We'll receive a new body. We're not gonna be disembodied souls for eternity. We will have a body. So understanding that, recognizing, my gosh, this is my one and only body I get for this life. And it is actually such a gift because God gave me this body that has eyes and ears and fingers and toes, and so I can smell and I can taste this wonderful food. And we get to enjoy and experience all of our life through our senses, through
Brenda Payne (34:43.83)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:46.281)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (34:46.466)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:53.524)
Right.
Brenda Payne (34:53.782)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (35:00.92)
Yeah.
Jennifer (35:07.727)
Our body, everything is processed through our body, our brains and our nervous systems and all the different complex things. The way God made us to be is ever all of our experiences are filtered through that. Some of us live in bodies that are full of pain, illness, disease. That's the reality of living in a broken, fallen world. Not all of our bodies, none of our bodies are perfect. All of our bodies will fail us in some way at some time.
Alex Kocher (35:21.043)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (35:31.885)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (35:36.414)
But that doesn't make our bodies not good. Like that, our body is a good body because God made us and this is our home. This is where, this is what we live in. So connecting, understanding through the past probably like seven years since I've been on this journey of transforming how I relate to God and how I pray to Him and how I experience my faith in a more deeply rich, deeply embodied way.
I've come to really more and more, and this is a continual process for me, but understanding that connection between the body, brain, and body, mind and soul, and how all of it is interconnected. And God gave us all of it so we can know him. We can taste and see that he is good. We can look around at creation and see the wonder of who he is. He gave us this body to experience this life, even in the pain and the suffering and the hard things, all of that.
Brenda Payne (36:21.495)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (36:33.303)
Everything in our body, every movement we make is an invitation to turn to him and to be with him and to experience his presence in this life. And so even though I don't like everything about my body, and even though I not everything is comfortable in my body, I've learned how to befriend my body in a way that I can listen to it and be kind to it and say, God, how can how can I worship you with this body? How can I
Alex Kocher (36:45.95)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (37:01.354)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (37:01.709)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (37:02.437)
serve you with this body? How can I live this life and enjoy this life that you've given me through this body? Because if I spend all my time hating myself and all my time trying to change myself or trying to control my body, I'm not gonna enjoy this body. And that's what the type of movement I share in this book is not movement as like exercise. This is not an exercise program. This is not a diet plan. I'm so I have my own personal reasons for being kind of anti all of that.
Brenda Payne (37:09.377)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (37:27.443)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (37:32.488)
This is more movement not to control or change your body, but movement to enjoy the body God has given you, just as it is right here, right now. No matter what you might be struggling with, maybe you can't walk. So maybe the walking exercises, activities in here might not be for you, but there's ways you can modify them for your body. You may not be able to move in all the same ways. You may not be able to, like my mom lost her taste and smell during COVID and never got it back. So she
Alex Kocher (37:39.325)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (38:00.121)
Brenda Payne (38:00.333)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jennifer (38:00.466)
Still can't taste or smell anything. But she's found a way to experience food through texture and through through. And so there are senses we still can use even if we lose some of our senses. So I wanted to be mindful of that as I wrote this book too. That this is this is not like all of these activities are going to work for absolutely everybody. It's kind of a pick and choose. But what these practices do is kind of help us pay attention and
Alex Kocher (38:07.752)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (38:09.357)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (38:22.039)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (38:27.505)
Befriend the body that we have. How do I listen to how am I feeling in my body? So the activities like the body scan can help with that, like where you're really focused on each part of your body, recognizing how you feel, risk recognizing the physical sensations and how that might tie into your emotional sensations too, how you're feeling. there's some grounding activities that bring us back to this present moment, because I know I tend to either like I
Brenda Payne (38:35.373)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (38:57.209)
I I tend to worry too much about the future or I, you know, rehearse the past and like get lost in other moments and I miss what's right here and right now. So grounding exercises can help to bring us back to right here if we're caught up in all the the worries of what might be or what might happen down the road. yeah.
Brenda Payne (39:14.647)
Can I just say something about that? I feel like maybe next to breath prayer, grounding is the next one that you get the most pushback on because it it, you know, a lot of people see that as being very secular, being a very, you know, yeah, outside of the Christian realm. So slow that down just a little bit and explain to us exactly what is grounding and how do we see this and use this as a spiritual practice that is helpful. I know you you you kind of said it, but I I kind of want to key in on that.
Jennifer (39:19.399)
Mm.
Jennifer (39:22.643)
Well yeah.
Alex Kocher (39:23.135)
Yeah.
Jennifer (39:26.899)
Sure. Mm-hmm. Good. Yeah.
Jennifer (39:40.164)
Sure. Yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. grounding is just really narrow it down to just it's just bringing yourself, your awareness back to this present moment and where you are, what you're feeling right now, what you're seeing right now, what you're hearing right now. so there's simple activities you can do to that I think I have, yep, right here. one thing I do is I have this little wooden cross that I'll hold.
And I'll touch if I'm, you know, feeling really worried, really anxious. I can focus in on something that's right here, right now, in the present moment. And this helps. And at the same time, I'm turning my mind to remember that God's with me. He's right here. he's just as real as this little cross that I'm holding, and he's right here with me. So it's a very physical, very right here, right now type of practice. Yeah. You use your senses, which God
Brenda Payne (40:31.809)
Sensual in terms of like using your senses, using all of your senses. Yeah.
Jennifer (40:36.477)
gave us these aren't some really weird wacky thing like no it's your body this is how God created you to be he wants us to use our senses he gave them to us for that reason but we can use it to again it's all about the orientation of our heart where we're our mind is focused on so using grounding activities to focus in on the present moment whether it's focusing on what you can see what you can smell what you can taste those of us who especially struggle with ruminations or worries or racing thoughts
Grounding activities can be a very practical way to focus on this present moment. Because where do we find God? Right here and now. He's in this present moment with us. He's always in the present. You know, we don't have to wait for God on the other side of some trial. We don't have to wait for him next week or next month. Maybe he'll show up. No, he's right here right now. So when we're focused on all the other things, we're missing out on his presence right here. So grounding activities, yeah there
Brenda Payne (41:14.317)
Present.
Jennifer (41:35.096)
they are practiced by a lot of people that aren't religious at all because they help, because they are helpful to our bodies. And so we can take those things just because other people use them, just because other religions might practice something similar, doesn't mean that it's bad or sinful for us. It's again about the orientation of our heart and our mind and who are we turning to. What are we trusting in? What are we, why are we doing this? And for me, this is a just a very practical way.
Brenda Payne (41:40.759)
Yeah. Common grace.
Alex Kocher (41:42.846)
Well.
Jennifer (42:04.957)
To focus back on this present moment because I tend to live in other moments. I tend to live in the past or the future, but being present here and now has been something I've had to learn over time. And grounding practices help me do that. And when I do that, I'm more able to be aware of God's presence with me in this present moment. And so that's why it can be really helpful, even as Christians. And, you know, I understand the weariness around it because it seemed very
Brenda Payne (42:16.023)
Yep.
Jennifer (42:34.511)
Woo woe to me too when I first started. I'm like, I don't want to seem like I'm not trusting God or I'm not, you know, the right kind of Christian because I'm doing the but actually for me I'm a very sen I've realized that I am a very sensitive soul and I feel things very deeply and I though so these kind of practices really speak to a part of me and how God made me. And so I this is a way I can connect to him even in a very practical way.
Alex Kocher (42:39.293)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (42:41.005)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (42:54.603)
Yeah.
Jennifer (43:01.339)
real way 'cause I need a God that is right here and now. Like I need God who I can, you know, can can hold to right now through it all. And these practices help me to do that. So
Alex Kocher (43:05.447)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (43:07.309)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (43:15.381)
Yeah. And we just talk about that idea of experiential knowledge of God, that it's not just an intellectual knowledge. And I mean I know I keep going back to Philippians 'cause that's where I'm living, but I think it's just so brilliant how if we look at how Paul is writing to these
Jennifer (43:19.123)
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (43:29.569)
believers, he's really using a lot of language of the Stoics and the Epicureans, which are the philosophers of the day that the Gentiles would have been steeped in, but he's using them now and reframing them in a biblical way. And I feel like that's kind of these practices are the same way because in the beginning God did give us a very tactile world to live in and he engaged all of our senses and he was present and we knew he was present in the garden. And then you get to the fall where all of these relationships are broken and now God's given us a a ways to be reminded and to be comforted.
Jennifer (43:34.429)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (43:39.463)
Yeah. Absolutely.
Jennifer (43:50.193)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jennifer (43:58.312)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (44:00.106)
by his presence and I think grounding is a great way. And all of these, all of these these ways that you've talked about in your book, I mean, they're backed by science. You know, it's it's and and sometimes we can look at that and say we're we're not secular people who say we're only body and so the body's the only thing that matters and this is only soothing and coping techniques. You know, we're not looking these as just, I mean, this is soul care.
Jennifer (44:08.775)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jennifer (44:17.167)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (44:24.735)
as we're caring holistically for the whole person and the and science is just showing us that God's word is good and right and true and trustworthy.
Jennifer (44:29.65)
Yeah.
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, science and faith don't aren't necessarily at odds with each other. I think we didn't tend to pit them against each other, but really science just reveals what God already has said and how He's made us. And I think it only just more uncovers those layers of wow, God, you are incredible. Like look what you've given us and look how this works. Like it's just neat to me. Yeah, they don't have to be at odds, like at all. And so it is fascinating to me the more I uncover
Brenda Payne (44:54.765)
That's right.
Jennifer (44:58.311)
And I'm not like a professional or like I don't know at all, but I just am fascinated by everything I learned though. That it's like, gosh, it only backs up, you know, what we experience. So mm hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Brenda Payne (44:58.657)
Yeah, true science.
Brenda Payne (45:07.627)
Yep. Yeah, we're right there with you. We're not scientists, but we can read science reports and we can read what neuroscientists are saying now. That is just so fascinating and so beautiful and wonderful. Well, goodness, I did wanna ask you one other question. Just one of the things I wanna mention is that your books are beautiful. I mean, they are just so beautiful and you're an artist.
Alex Kocher (45:12.915)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (45:15.335)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (45:24.242)
thanks.
Alex Kocher (45:24.636)
Yeah.
Jennifer (45:27.474)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (45:27.731)
as well. And I think it's also really interesting. I want our listeners to know is that you did not set out to be a an author and to be published. Like they came looking for you. And God
Jennifer (45:36.401)
No Yeah, my story's weird.
Brenda Payne (45:39.985)
Yeah, and God just did this. And, you know, you've done other podcasts as well where I know you go more into your story of how you got here. But I do just wanna say there is something about beauty and Alex and I talk a lot about beauty. Can you say a little bit about beauty and your artwork and the expression of that, how that has been a meaningful connection with you with the Lord?
Jennifer (46:00.0)
absolutely. I think, yeah. I mean, that's art and I didn't even grow up doing art. Like it that's another thing that I just kind of stumbled into. And I'm like, this really I like pretty things and I like and I think that God made me that way. You need all of us to to appreciate beauty and creation and things. So a lot of my art is botanical and it's like nature based because that's just where I find a lot of inspiration. But yeah, I feel like the the practice of art,
Brenda Payne (46:20.787)
Mm-hmm. It's beautiful.
Jennifer (46:28.911)
is a meditative type practice to me and it's a way that I can kind of think God gives us all so many amazing gifts and you know I just think when we when we find something that brings us joy and we do that thing, whether we think we're good at it or not, like I still I think my art could be so much better, but but at the same time I'm like, no, this brings me so much joy and that's the gift. That's
Alex Kocher (46:31.166)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (46:39.117)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (46:44.781)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (46:47.593)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (46:55.201)
Yeah. Yep.
Jennifer (46:56.093)
what God has given me. So the beauty of that is that, you know, it's just a way I can reflect Christ in me, you know? Like just I don't know. That's yeah. I love it.
Brenda Payne (47:04.843)
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. And I love that what you're saying is everybody can find something. it may not be art, but it can be something else that will bring meaningful connection to the Lord that produces some level of beauty or awe.
Alex Kocher (47:07.739)
That's great.
Jennifer (47:10.045)
Mm, mm.
Sure.
Jennifer (47:17.479)
Hmm. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (47:18.739)
and if you know, I can't draw, so I'm just gonna appreciate yours, which is the great thing about, you know, God's gift to us to one another is I couldn't do this, but I can enjoy what you've done and that brings me a lot of pleasure in in looking at the beauty. But Alex, I know we need to wrap this up. Is there anything else that you wanted to ask before we we head out? I feel like we're
Jennifer (47:21.587)
There you go. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (47:36.521)
I think our last question may just be if people are uncomfortable starting these practices, how would you suggest they get started? How do they overcome that discomfort?
Jennifer (47:43.376)
Mm-hmm. Well, I think the only way to really overcome the discomfort is to do it and to try it. but I'd say start small and go slow. There is no pressure, there's no perfect way to do it. find something that sounds a little comfortable to you, like the easiest in for you, and just try that and and then connect to God as you do that thing.
Alex Kocher (47:50.184)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (48:02.941)
Mm.
Jennifer (48:08.647)
Whether it's a movement, maybe it's just stretching your arms up. Maybe you stretch every morning. Well, while you stretch, say a little prayer to God as you do it and see what happens. See what turning your mind to God consistently, like in a rhythm through your day, what that does. Maybe breathing doesn't feels pretty doable. We all breathe. Like just take a couple of breaths and pray a short prayer and just see what happens when you do that day after day after day. Give it five days. See, see how you feel. See
Alex Kocher (48:16.403)
Mm, mm.
Brenda Payne (48:27.799)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (48:37.893)
if you're a little more comfortable with it. but yeah, that's what I was just saying start slow, start small. It's not about perfection. It's about presence. It's about being present with God. And there's a lot of ways that we can do that. So
Alex Kocher (48:47.279)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (48:47.361)
That's right.
Alex Kocher (48:53.501)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (48:53.877)
Amen. And that's the beauty, isn't it? Enneagram 7. I love a lot of ways, a lot of choices. That's why my quiet times are always all over the place. So Jennifer, we just want to thank you so much for coming on. Where can our listeners find you? Where's the best place? Because you've actually got some artwork that you sell that's Christian based and some, I think, cards and some other things and maybe future work. So how can our listeners follow you and find out more about you?
Jennifer (48:57.799)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (48:58.057)
All the choices.
Jennifer (49:13.789)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer (49:22.641)
Yeah. Well, my website is little house studio dot net. And so from there you can find all the books, you can find everything else. So yep. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (49:31.371)
Go. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much. As your story is so compelling and just beautiful. And we are so thankful to partner with you and continue to follow you on your journey. And who knows, get you back on sometime down the road again. So thanks again for this conversation.
Jennifer (49:35.197)
Thank you.
Jennifer (49:46.033)
Yeah, sure. well thank you so much. Thank you.