S14 Ep. 5 / Protective or Controlling?: Spotting the Difference Before It’s Too Late with Sydney Millage
Brenda Payne (00:03.114)
Well, Alex, today we are talking about a topic that could save someone years, maybe even decades of suffering. you and I both know and have counseled women who have married a man they thought was a good man, even they thought was a godly man, only to find out and discover patterns of manipulation and control, domination, abusive patterns, and sometimes even as soon as their honeymoon night. And those women often
Alex Kocher (00:09.902)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (00:31.306)
Come to us saying, If I had only known, or I wish I knew then what I knew now. Well, today our guest is Sydney Millage, and we are so excited to have her. Sydney is the executive director of Clarity and Action Ministry, and she's a passionate advocate for helping churches recognize and respond to intimate partner abuse and in Christ-honoring ways. And with that, Sydney is helping churches, church leaders, and
Alex Kocher (00:33.656)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (01:00.244)
People helpers know how to enter into these really, really hard places. And Sydney, I think if I'm right, that this first book that you wrote, Sanctuary, Hope and Help for Victims of Domestic Abuse, was actually your thesis in seminary. Is that right?
Sydney Millage (01:15.923)
It was. It it was published actually within six months of graduating. So it was definitely an act of love. It was an act of what I had what I really wanted to communicate to people about what the Bible says, about intimate relationships and what it means to walk with the Lord and to reflect those.
Alex Kocher (01:21.462)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (01:21.993)
Yes.
Sydney Millage (01:42.674)
upon, you know, more education, more experience. There are things that I have struggled with that I wrote in the book. so I'm not promoting that as much as I did at first, but I believe that it points to Jesus and that's where true hope is.
Brenda Payne (01:54.368)
Okay. Yeah. I appreci Yes Yes.
Alex Kocher (01:58.543)
Thank you for saying that Sydney because we found ourselves in that position so often as we're learning more and it's such a sweet humility to hear you admit that you're still learning, we're both still learning. We often talk about things we regret teaching in the past and even regret that lead to this topic, right? Because we've taught a lot about roles in marriage and so thank you for admitting that from the outset.
Brenda Payne (02:19.509)
Ha ha.
Sydney Millage (02:23.393)
Absolutely.
Brenda Payne (02:28.884)
I was I was just thinking the same thing. That was so beautiful. And Sydney, I had the privilege of being in seminary with you. we were at the same seminary at the same time, and so I was familiar with your work. And one of the things I will just say, just in the interactions we had then, I could just tell that you had a boldness to you, that you were brave, and that you were like you were a fierce woman in all the right ways. And so I just love that about you. And I feel like this is a full circle moment.
Sydney Millage (02:35.275)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (02:54.388)
having you on the podcast and getting to share your work. Today we're gonna focus in on a topic of some of the danger signs that women can be aware of when they are in a dating relationship and there is the risk of intimate partner abuse. And you've written a booklet on that as well called 37 Ways to be taken captive warning signs and prevention for destructive relationships. And you're also a counselor and you do advocacy work.
So with that introduction, Sydney, welcome to conversational counseling.
Alex Kocher (05:50.088)
Hehehehehe
Sydney Millage (05:50.732)
Thank you. It is so good to be here. This is such a treat. And it is fun to visit again, Brenda, after these years have passed and you and I have both grown and learned and had the experiences and then Alex to be able to visit with you and as well because I don't know you as well. So I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Brenda Payne (05:55.154)
Alex Kocher (06:09.463)
Mm.
Well, Sydney, we wanted to start off talking about dating and warning signs. And one of the reasons we wanted to have the conversation about these dangers in dating is because the data tells us that this isn't a small problem in our current cultural context. And I just wanted you to start off saying, why do you think we're seeing such increasing levels of control, coercion, and abuse in dating relationships?
Sydney Millage (06:41.179)
that's a great question. And I I do believe you're right. I think that it is the percentage is probably increasing with time. the individuals that I work with are primarily coming out of churches. They love Jesus. they live for Jesus, they're seeking him, and many of them that is their history. That is
Their growing up years, their formative years have all been in the church. and I think unfortunately, what I'm seeing is that there has been a history or a pattern of promoting authority and appearance over and above Christ-likeness and truth. And so when that happens, even if at the
Brenda Payne (07:27.988)
Hm.
Sydney Millage (07:35.264)
Beginning stages, something is only off two degrees. You know, if you're thinking of like a railroad track and it's off two degrees, well, by the time you get five years, ten years, thirty years down the road, you're in a very different place than where you had intended. And I think that many
Many individuals in leadership, and I am one of those people who is a Bible study leader for years, and I mistaught authority, I mistaught ideas of submission and obedience and love and Christ-likeness, even to a small degree, but the fruit has been death, the fruit has been.
un Christ like because it doesn't accurately reflect the whole counsel of the Word of God, even though it was not ill intentioned. And so I'm wondering if that's what we're seeing coming out of our churches. and again I can't speak to the the secular world that that's always, you know, picking up steam and and moving in a direction that is away from Christ, other than the Spirit and the Father drawing them.
Alex Kocher (08:31.501)
Sure.
Sydney Millage (08:50.835)
But in our churches I think that that that small degree has created this great distance.
Alex Kocher (09:00.173)
Yeah, that's a great way to say it. And what we've seen or what we've and we've even participated in, just like you said, the errors we've made in our teaching is the lack of nuance around this topic has just led to so much error. And we live in a society where like clips and teaching is so fast paced and we're putting people are consuming things that are put out there, but they're consuming it in 30 second or minute clips.
and it's not able to be nuanced. And so this is certainly a topic authority, marriage and the roles in marriage submission that has to be so greatly nuanced and understood within the whole council of scripture that's so often is not happening and hasn't happened in the past.
Sydney Millage (09:52.374)
The other problem that I see, and again, I I've been leading Bible studies since I was a freshman in high school. You know, I just the Lord has blessed me with a love for his word, a love for people, a love to study. and shoot, hold on to that because I'm headed somewhere with that. here's what it is. Thank you. So
Brenda Payne (10:00.756)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (10:01.921)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (10:15.116)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (10:18.625)
Hahaha
Sydney Millage (10:20.999)
What we end up doing is we are so busy studying the Word of God that we miss our reflection.
And James says, you know, if the word of God is like a mirror, we're to look into it and to look at our reflection and then to make the changes. And what I have found in so many Bible studies I've done over the years is it's look at the gilded edges of the Word of God, look at the beautiful reflection, look at how perfect it is, polish, polish, polish, polish, and never looking at, this is my reflection.
in the Word of God. This is what needs to change. That is the purpose of the Word of God. And I I think that that has also led us to where we are today.
Brenda Payne (11:08.679)
It's interesting you even say that 'cause in Philippians two I was reading Paul's prayer for the Philippians for experiential knowledge and discernment.
And that experiential knowledge is not the head knowledge. It's that personal, intimate knowing God and knowing that He knows us, which means we have to know what He knows about us and have to see ourselves correctly. So I think that's a really good point. So since you were, it sounds like became a Christian at a young age and involved with Bible study, how was it that you kind of came into this ministry where you are working with women and abuse and even now to where you are and
And how were you what inspired you to write the the thirty-seven ways to be taken captive, which by the way is written very clever, cleverly from the perspective of an abuser and what they might be saying to you.
Sydney Millage (11:57.854)
Yeah, yeah, that was kind of fun. I just I wanted to catch people's attention with that. so I it's important to understand I there are times that I have been accused is a heavy word. there are times that people think that I see abuse everywhere, every relationship is abuse.
But if I break it down this way and remind people that by the age of 18, one out of every four women will have been sexually assaulted or molested.
And if we break it down, in America, it's one out of every four women will have experienced physical abuse in it in a domestic relationship, which doesn't count coercive control, and is self-reporting. So the percentage is probably higher than that. And then if I look at the number, the percentage of women that come and ask for help, it's it's pretty bang on.
Brenda Payne (12:53.908)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (12:53.941)
Right?
Brenda Payne (13:03.007)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (13:06.825)
Because not every woman is seeking help. Not every woman needs help. So the women I'm helping, the people who come to me, most likely have those very extreme needs or those things that have developed over life. So is that what I'm seeing most of the time? Well, yes, because those are the people asking for help. Those are the people who are struggling. Those are the people who need it.
Brenda Payne (13:09.896)
Right.
Brenda Payne (13:19.721)
Mm.
Mm.
Brenda Payne (13:27.997)
Hmm, great point.
Sydney Millage (13:33.084)
But I would also say that having spent time with those that percentage of women that it makes it much easier to identify in other conversations and other relationships, right? I can I can watch a TV series like one of the
Brenda Payne (13:43.923)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (13:50.208)
You know, whatever, and s and just and my family says, Mom, you're just seeing it everywhere. And I'm saying, Well, if it's one out of three or one out of four, it's going to be there. It's going to be very evident. So I we had started Clarity in Action Ministries. And the reason I wrote this book is because the pastor I was working with at the time, his name is Mike Gittens, he's in Minnesota. He said, Sydney, I am so tired of picking women up at from the bottom of the cliff. Would you
Brenda Payne (13:57.418)
Ha ha ha.
Brenda Payne (14:19.571)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (14:19.832)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (14:20.251)
please write something so that we can keep them from falling off the cliff. And I started praying and writing and again seeking counsel.
Brenda Payne (14:22.825)
Hmm. Hmm.
Sydney Millage (14:31.653)
And that's where thirty-seven ways came from. Thirty-seven is just because I have all of these, you know, red flags. Like how many red flags do you really use? And my husband, who's an engineer, said pick a prime number. People remember prime num so I just picked thirty-seven. There's really nothing special about thirty seven. But it might be something people remember.
Brenda Payne (14:40.287)
Ha ha ha
Alex Kocher (14:48.285)
interesting.
Brenda Payne (14:49.625)
That's great. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (15:27.625)
My girls say the same thing. Excuse me about me, Sydney. They think I see abuse everywhere. And what I tell people really often, and I'm sure you feel the same way, is I'm actually really reluctant to name abuse because I don't ever want to diminish the story of a woman who has truly been abused by saying that everything is abuse. And there is the danger of doing that if we just label every, if everything is something that nothing is, right?
Brenda Payne (15:49.299)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (15:57.361)
We've said that before and so I actually want to be really careful because it honors the women whose stories are stories of abuse by being careful in what we do, but when we have seen the patterns then we do recognize them more quickly and and we say this thing like when we've seen one abuse case we've seen one
Brenda Payne (16:03.454)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (16:17.61)
but we do see patterns. The patterns play out in the particular very differently, but we do recognize the patterns. But I love that you've tackled these patterns in dating because I think, gosh, prevention, just the idea of being able to get this resource into people's hands to prevent getting to the point where there are children, where there's a long-term marriage, where there's a lot of entanglement financially is so helpful. I want to talk about your language of taking captive. Why do you think that?
Brenda Payne (16:32.67)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (16:47.534)
language is important and why'd you put it in your title?
Sydney Millage (16:54.645)
The Bible uses the word oppression. I have had people push back on me that God doesn't use the word oppression in terms of intimate relationships. and I would say that yes, he very much does use the idea of oppression. And he talks about, you know, in the Old Testament about women taken in captivity, and then that's referred to again in First Corinthians seven.
Alex Kocher (16:57.429)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (17:19.413)
in our relationship. So that idea of oppression means to break to pieces. A captive is someone who is taken against their will, where they have they have been dominated. And so that is the thing that even as I wrote the book Sanctuary and I studied my thesis, I was I was led
Alex Kocher (17:30.134)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (17:37.321)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (17:48.448)
To write on physical abuse for my thesis that was supposed to be the focus. But as I studied the Bible, I thought all of these things are sinful. There is nothing, it doesn't matter if it's physical abuse or if it's any other form of dominating, oppression, oppressing, taking captive. You know, I use this. This is my the way I usually show this dynamic is you have a person who is under an oppression.
Brenda Payne (17:59.274)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (18:18.371)
person who is over and they're controlled in all of these ways. Yeah, that that just express and they're they're limited in how they express their personhood and they're not able to live out their design. And so being taken captive is an oppressor and someone who is oppressed. That is a relationship. There is no mutuality.
Alex Kocher (18:19.891)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (18:22.823)
If you can't see Sydney, she's got a fist in one hand and she's got like a spider hand over the fist to show that oppressive control.
Alex Kocher (18:27.872)
Hehehehe
Alex Kocher (18:34.294)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (18:47.466)
Yeah. So Sydney, what are some of those early warning signs in a dating relationship of that controlling, oppressive relationship?
Sydney Millage (18:57.567)
Well, you just you just said it, Alex. We look for the control. really, I think it was Dave goodness, in his book When Sinners Say I Do, who is that? Thank you, Dave Harvey. I think he's the one that said, the measure of a man's character is when he says what you tell him no.
Alex Kocher (19:01.408)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (19:11.421)
Yeah, yeah yeah, Dave Harvey, yeah, it's a great book. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (19:11.798)
Harvey.
Alex Kocher (19:21.708)
Mmm.
Sydney Millage (19:22.483)
And that is what I will even tell churches is if a woman is struggling with a husband and she's feeling controlled and you don't see it, you as the church leaders need to tell him no and see how he responds.
Brenda Payne (19:31.441)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (19:39.249)
Amen to that.
Sydney Millage (19:40.244)
And so in a dating relationship, when he's told no, or when there is an obstacle to what he wants, what he desires, if there are demands, and no is you know the answer that he's given, what does he do with that? Does he manipulate? Does he coerce? Does he force? Does he demand? does he get angry? Does he punish? So so the big pieces we're looking for are.
Brenda Payne (19:40.691)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (20:05.311)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (20:10.56)
Someone who has more power, more resources in a relationship, so one has more and one has less. That's going to be a huge tip-off. And then the other is the punishment aspect.
Alex Kocher (20:23.722)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (20:24.287)
When he doesn't get what he wants, how does he respond? And it may be silent treatment. It it isn't always something physical. It isn't always something visible or overt, but there will be a form of punishment. So what is that? What does it look like and feel like?
Alex Kocher (20:40.46)
Can you say a little bit more about the word coerce because I think this is the concept that's so hard to grasp. I think coercive control is just it feels like I can't ever give this good succinct definition and
I also think there's so much confusion that comes with coercive control because it's so of the enemy and he creates confusion not only for the person in the relationship, but it's even hard for someone who's seeing it to explain to someone what they're experiencing.
Brenda Payne (21:12.052)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (21:16.289)
You are you're absolutely right. So the two things that I look for when I'm
Listening to women talk about relationships and so we're this applies to dating relationships as well, are fear and confusion. If I'm afraid of what will happen, or I'm afraid of the outcome, or I'm afraid of losing approval, that would be a huge red flag. I'm afraid for whatever reason, in a healthy relationship, there should not be fear.
Alex Kocher (21:32.981)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (21:49.546)
And number two is confusion. So if a woman is confused about what's being said or what's being done or how things are happening, James 3:16 very clearly tells us that where envy and selfish ambition exist, or where you have envy and selfish ambition, confusion and every evil thing are there. So when we hear the words confusion, we are suddenly realizing that our God is a God of order.
Brenda Payne (22:07.944)
Uh-huh.
Brenda Payne (22:12.67)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (22:19.459)
He is very clear in what he says. We know exactly what God thinks, what he desires, we know exactly how to please him. So if there is any confusion, that tells us that there's a problem. And then to the idea of coercion. Coercion is very
the the sense or the feeling that again there will be punishment if I don't, that there is a consequence for me choosing something that may be different than what the other person expects or wants. That's all it is. And it it may come in any number of forms. If you're looking for words, I'm gonna throw this out there, but the the Duluth model's power and control wheel gives you words to explain and
Brenda Payne (22:47.152)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (22:56.812)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (23:08.242)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Alex Kocher (23:10.305)
Right.
Sydney Millage (23:11.575)
To describe what's happening. And it's simply a descriptive tool. It doesn't give us solutions, but it does give women words.
Alex Kocher (23:18.89)
Right. Yeah. Sydney, I want to go back just one minute to the fear idea because I think it's so important for women to recognize the fear in the dating relationship because I meet with a lot of women who are 10, 15, 20 years into marriage and they've lived with the fear so long that they almost become immune to their own sense of fear. And I'll ask a question like,
if they're going to have a conversation, if they're going to set a boundary and I'll say, do you feel safe to do that? And they'll go, wait, what do you, what do you mean do I feel safe? Like, and I say, are you safe emotionally, physically and psychologically to set that boundary? And it will take them a long time to answer. And I've had women come back later, like a week later in the next counseling session and go, you know, I have been
in a state of like I haven't stopped to think about my own fear for so long. I've like become conditioned to my own fear. So I think it's so important to be aware of that fear early on in the dating relationship because you can get in that state of hyper vigilance and not even realize you're there when you've been in that relationship so long.
Sydney Millage (24:38.411)
I agree a hundred percent. I think the other issue is that many of our children are growing up in homes of fear. And so the parents have been dominating their lives for so long that again they don't know life apart from that. That feels very familiar and that is very normal, and they don't know.
Alex Kocher (24:46.43)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (24:46.675)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (24:57.643)
Yep.
Sydney Millage (25:00.381)
it is to make their own decisions, to not have to be hyper-vigilant and read people's emotions all the time and respond to those in these very minute you know fractions of time because that's the way our our many of our churches and families operate unfortunately.
Brenda Payne (25:08.584)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (25:18.003)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (25:24.926)
So I have a question, going back to kind of this idea, you know, of not calling things that are abuse that are not abuse, or what would you tell a woman who's dating a man and she is trying to distinguish is he just immature and wrestling with selfishness? He's this is he's a normal center growing versus he's like a dominating dangerous person.
Sydney Millage (25:46.082)
Sure, that's a great question, Brenda. And I would start to look for patterns. So we're not talking about just a one off you know, we are all growing, we are all changing, we're all making mistakes. and it a big part of that then is taking personal responsibility. So when I've sinned against someone, when I know I've hurt them,
Brenda Payne (26:04.413)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (26:10.517)
When I realize that I'm not seeking God's best for that person and sacrificially loving them, do I own that? Do I take personal responsibility for it? And then do I seek to change? But if it's this ongoing pattern of ignoring that or pushing through it or excusing it, minimizing, justifying, d in denying all of those, then we're seeing a pattern.
Brenda Payne (26:24.787)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (26:38.335)
And that's where we begin to use that word abuse, which is the prefix ab not, and use. So it's a not using something appropriately. It's a misuse of my resources, of my power, of my personhood, to my advantage and another person's expense, at their expense.
Brenda Payne (27:02.48)
Sometimes what I see is not the man justifying, minimizing, denying, and all of that. I see the woman for the man, right? That there's I feel like particularly Christian women are taught to be very forgiving and forbearing and sacrificial and accommodating. And so I'm just wondering, one, do you think that these beautiful qualities, how are these beautiful qualities exploited and
Sydney Millage (27:10.705)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (27:30.098)
What would you say or how I I I feel like that's one of the things that I have struggled with in trying to help a woman see the patterns that are there because they want the relationship so badly. They don't want to be lonely, they wanna be married, they're willing to accept the behavior and actually become the one that does make all the excuses and kind of minimizes what's going on.
Sydney Millage (27:51.766)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's that's very common. That's very human. I actually help law enforcement in our area and I had a call on this over the weekend. the officer is trying to identify the primary aggressor and and I really appreciate it. It's an individual that I've done I've trained in the past and am really grateful for those conversations.
Brenda Payne (27:56.317)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (28:08.075)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (28:16.99)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (28:17.349)
and I I was very honest with him and I said, They're both gonna lie. You're not gonna get the truth from either either one because to admit that someone has treated me that way and that I have stayed is a very shameful, embarrassing thing.
Brenda Payne (28:22.334)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (28:31.154)
Hmm. Yeah.
Sydney Millage (28:34.733)
And I don't want to admit that to anyone. I'm not admitting that to myself. it's very common for me to meet with women for an extended period of time before that even comes into the conversation. So, Alex, you were talking about not identifying abuse when it's not. And I can think of maybe one woman that I had met with for two or three years.
Alex Kocher (28:48.85)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (29:04.883)
And I finally said, you do realize we are talking about domestic abuse. We are talking about coercive control. Otherwise, I don't identify it. I wait for them. It's a self-discovery. But it takes a long time because to your point, Brenda, they don't want to see it for what it is, and they think they're being Christ-like. But one of the women said to me, If I read Ephesians chapter 5 on marriage,
Alex Kocher (29:18.483)
Right.
Brenda Payne (29:18.664)
Mm.
Sydney Millage (29:34.577)
I'm being asked to be the submissive wife, but I'm also being asked to love my husband as Christ loves the church. And I'm carrying both sides of the marriage relationship all by myself, and he's not carrying anything. And it's it's a very sad, sad place to wake up and realize that's where you are.
Alex Kocher (29:57.873)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I've heard the other verse. I've heard...
I love that she was able to recognize that she had a part and he had a part and she was taking his part on and not asking him to hold his part because the one of the other verses that I hear get misused so much is Philippians to you know consider others more than yourself all these things but again only one party is doing that considering only one person is holding that and they they they
Brenda Payne (30:25.212)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (30:36.788)
fall under the weight of someone else's control and punishment and all these things while that perpetrator is not considering someone more than themselves. So it's a great way to say it of asking the other person to hold their responsibility.
Sydney Millage (30:53.301)
And it goes back to what part of the question Brenda was asking is about
How do we help these women see what's happening and what is actually Christ-like? And the Christ-like response of love is not to make provision for the flesh, is not to make the allowance for sin. Jesus did not excuse sin. He did not justify sin against himself or anyone else. And so for a woman to be told that she has to bear up on
Brenda Payne (31:03.463)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (31:30.836)
And endure that is her cross to be. I mean, I could go on, right? And we could we really need to parse out all of those scriptures accurately because they've been so mistaught and mishandled. But the truth is, I am not loving, even as the person sitting in this seat, I am not loving the perpetrator if he is not being held accountable. And if he does not have an opportunity for repentance, then I am not loving that person well, and neither are the churches that.
Brenda Payne (31:35.421)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (31:35.676)
Right.
Brenda Payne (31:39.687)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (31:52.903)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (32:00.77)
are shepherding. They're not loving either person well. And they're not leading either person to Jesus Christ and to Christlikeness. And it is a travesty because we could all be doing this work. We should all be doing this work in a way that honors Jesus and that reflects him.
Brenda Payne (32:04.166)
Right. Yes.
Alex Kocher (32:18.706)
Yeah. You know, Sydney, I think a lot of this teaching in our churches and the way these Bible verses are misused cause women not to trust their gut, just their natural instinct in the relationship. And you encourage women, particularly in dating relationships early on when they're seeing these things to trust their gut. Can you flesh that out a little bit?
Sydney Millage (32:39.603)
Okay, this is really touchy for a biblical counselor. Can I just say this is edgy? and I'm going to reference a work that is not a biblical counseling work. It is called the Gift of Fear. and I don't have it right in front of me because I wasn't expecting this to come up, but it's called the Gift of Fear. If somebody has the author, you can throw it out there.
Brenda Payne (32:43.132)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (32:43.274)
Let's do it!
Alex Kocher (32:55.806)
Yeah. yeah.
Alex Kocher (33:06.428)
It's in my down, should grab it. But yeah, we can put it in the show notes.
Sydney Millage (33:08.321)
Yeah, I have it right here. I have it earmarked in different places. Malia's got it. so what he is speaking to as a former Secret Service officer is the fact that God has given us an innate sense of fear to protect ourselves and to live according to our design and our God-given capabilities. And so
Brenda Payne (33:10.91)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (33:36.268)
When I have a sense that something is wrong or I need to protect myself or get safe, what is happening is I have a lot of connections going on in my mind that I may not be able to verbalize. And that's fair. I may not be able to put words to why I'm afraid or what's happening, but that is a God given opportunity to listen to that. And and Proverbs speaks to it, right? Proverbs says.
Alex Kocher (33:49.672)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (33:50.014)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (34:05.863)
that who it was right there that that it is wise to listen to our fear and then we seek to protect ourselves but the foolish person sees danger and keeps going basically
Alex Kocher (34:22.307)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (34:23.677)
An example, I was in one a department store one day. I was in the card section, I was looking at cards, and I heard commotion up near the registers, and I heard someone yelling, I heard them being loud. they were using expletives that I don't say in it otherwise, so I'm not gonna say them here.
And there was a hush and things got very quiet. Some people in that same aisle went to the end of the aisle and looked out to the register to see what was happening. And I remembered that proverb and I said, no, I am not in a safe I mean, right now I'm safe. I'm not going to put myself in harm's way.
Because I recognize that that individual may have a deadly weapon, they may be using force for whatever reason, that does not feel safe. And that's not a safe environment, so I'm not going to put myself there. And I think that we want to honor that.
Because it is a God-given gift and it is a sense of knowing there's danger or trouble and not walking into that. And that's something that we want to teach people to listen to and to honor. And maybe it does or doesn't change your behavior, but we need to learn to stop and ask questions.
Brenda Payne (35:42.82)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (35:44.467)
and look and seek counsel, right? And and talk to other people and look for for those resources to help us figure out why we're having that hesitation.
Alex Kocher (35:46.792)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (35:47.037)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (35:55.806)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (35:55.806)
Yeah, I like what you're saying, that we're not necessarily I mean, an immediate situation, yes, trust your gut, move away from danger, but it's when we're making long term decisions, it's not to say that we wouldn't bring in other data points or other counsel. But I think we've been taught in our circles that, you know
Feelings are bad, they don't count, don't listen to your gut, listen to your feelings, and we've all come to realize like, well, that's dumb. you know, how many times in my own life have I been in a situation that something just didn't feel right? And I'm like, I'm going to get to a safer place. I think one of the things that's really hard in dealing with men who are domineering is so often they are charming. And so it feels very counterintuitive, maybe, because you've got this man who is so charming.
Who's basically love bombing you and all of that. But then you'll also have, of course, the other behaviors and that gut feeling of something's not right, but then you get looped back in. And so maybe if there's just a question in that, it's again, how can you help a woman? Because I think those are are two kind of competing
strong there's a lot of strong emotion and a lot of strong competing emotion. This guy loves me. He's over the moon about me and but wait he's isolating me from everybody and is you know checking my phone and my text messages or or just putting me down with sarcasm in front of other people. So I I I begin to doubt my myself. And I'm just thinking how can we help a woman begin to work through those extreme emotions to see like
Like this gut feeling you're having is real, even in light of the fact that you are getting so bombed with all of this love as well.
Alex Kocher (37:41.694)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (37:42.71)
Hmm. And it it is hard. It is an excruciating work if you have walked alongside women who have been in this place because ultimately it's their decision, right? Ultimately it's it's their choice and their consequence and their life. So it always comes back to truth. Right? Jesus speaks of himself and he says, You will know the truth.
And the truth will set you free. And our encouragement with Clarity in Action Ministries, with myself, and the counsel that I provide is we want to see this from God's perspective. I understand you have a perspective, you have desires, you have feelings, but we need to take your desires and feelings to the Word of God.
What do you seek most? Who are you following? Are you hearing the voice of your shepherd? Are you following the voice of your shepherd, regardless of these other things that are happening? How does God see the situation? Not how do I see this situation? Not how does your pastor, the perpetrator, your parent, whomever you see the situation, how does God see it black and white?
And what is God calling you to do and how is he calling you to respond? Oftentimes walking by faith is counterintuitive, but it's always based on truth.
Brenda Payne (39:11.261)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (39:14.109)
And I will often one of the prayers that I pray with women as we close our time together is from Proverbs 3, 5, and 6. You know, Heavenly Father, I pray that you will help her to trust you with her whole heart and not lean on her own understanding, but in all her ways to acknowledge you, knowing that you will direct her path.
And so those very simple verses that we many of us learned early still apply even to this really difficult situation.
Brenda Payne (39:41.821)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm sorry, Alex. I had a follow up question to that. Do you have something different?
Alex Kocher (39:51.05)
I was just going to say, oftentimes when you have that charming person and you have coercive control, when you're saying, Sydney, what does God say about it? And we're looking at black and white or concrete. That means we're looking at actions, right? We've got to sift through the words. We have to sift through the language. And we have to really, like you said earlier, study patterns of behavior over time and see what's really happening, not what's being said about what's
Brenda Payne (40:10.257)
Yep.
Alex Kocher (40:21.003)
what's happening or how maybe the love bombing and the charm comes in but like sift through all of that and what is the behavior that is occurring and that's hard to do and I really like the kind of grid that you're putting in place of what does God say about this behavior.
Sydney Millage (40:21.942)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (40:44.133)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And just I guess a different follow up I have is as an advocate and counselor myself, and quite a feisty one at times. one of the things that is just really, really hard is when you can see the danger that's ahead and somebody will not receive counsel. So I'm just wondering how you care for your own soul, because I can be, you know.
I can myself become very fearful or very anxious or very vexed or want to control. And now I'm taking control. And then the my other, I guess, follow-up question to that is if a woman doesn't take counsel, do you shift your counseling methodology, your approach to her? 'cause I think even in my own heart, and this is just a confession, and I won't do this, but there's just times I just want, you know, I just want to wash my hands totally.
And I think there is a sense in which you may have to step back, but you know, I don't want to leave somebody just without any sense of care for them. But just how how in your own because you're dealing with some really intense you're you're doing this as a specialist, so to speak, and dealing with really intense cases. So the care of your own soul, and then if you have someone who is resisting counsel, they're moving forward, how do you shift your counseling with them or how does that affect the relationship?
Sydney Millage (42:01.056)
No, those are great questions. so let me just put a capstone capstone on what Alex said. And I usually go to Matthew chapter seven. The whole chapter is
Those who follow Christ, those who don't, those who f when what it looks like, and it does go back to our actions and our choices. So that's a important passage. for my own self, I think there are two antidotes particularly that flesh themselves out many ways about self-care. one is beauty and one is worship. And I find that I have
Alex Kocher (42:19.303)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (42:37.405)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (42:43.539)
I so I play the piano. I played the piano the majority of my life. And I have songs that I play that are specific to specific situations. When there is a situation that is heavy on my heart, I will generally go and play through those songs and spend time in worship, prayer, singing, dancing.
Brenda Payne (43:09.689)
Mm-hmm. Nice.
Sydney Millage (43:11.429)
we do a lot of dance breaks at my house. The motion and that. And then and then the beauty. I love f flowers. I enjoy landscaping and keeping up with those things. beautiful words, beautiful stories. the to just bask in those things that God has created for good for us and and himself.
Alex Kocher (43:15.219)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (43:38.918)
as the source and the giver and always going back to him. That's where I find myself and and that helps me reset. I have to recalibrate my heart multiple times a day, right? So there was a period of time in this
Brenda Payne (43:41.917)
Hmm. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (43:49.211)
Yes.
Sydney Millage (43:56.226)
Counseling journey I'm on where I got all the books on suffering, and I just read all the books on suffering and I had to sort it out. And the books on lament and the books on, you know, so we have those seasons in our lives where we really need to focus and learn and teach ourselves and allow the Lord to teach us and use those things and invest in that. and as far as the people who are
resistant, particularly the councilees. in the biblical victim care course that we provide through Clarity in Action Ministries, it's a 12-week class, so the lecture is under two hours a week and then they're reading assignments and homework.
five of the twelve lessons are about me as the counselor getting my heart and head in the right place. Because very few of us, especially having been trained in nephatic counseling, very few of us are prepared spiritually, mentally, emotionally, to enter this world of
Brenda Payne (44:48.933)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (45:03.153)
working with people who have been so blindsided, who think they're doing the right thing, who want to follow Jesus and they're not able to see it all, and they're deceived and they're being deceived, they're deceiving themselves, you know, all of those to set my own heart and mind according to expectations, to live in a way that is loving and kind and patient and gentle.
Brenda Payne (45:07.037)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (45:14.279)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (45:21.693)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (45:29.159)
it's it's a whole different mindset and yet to be true and to be honest about what God says and and who he is and to represent both the grace and the truth in in balance it it's very hard and I'm a person and so I fall into the imbalance
Brenda Payne (45:41.01)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (45:44.051)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (45:44.253)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (45:49.276)
Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. I mean I know I've had to go back to a few people because I've hit
I've fallen in one ditch or the other and just confess that and ask forgiveness myself. You know. because we do love so deeply and we, you know, we want people to be safe and we want them to be free. And when you're investing in a person, and for our listeners, it might be a friend or a neighbor or a coworker or somebody that they're in church with in a small group with. And so this might be somebody they have an ongoing relationship with, and they're going to continue to see their lives unfold and be a part of that. And that just feels so heavy, so thankfully.
Thank you. I think we do have to just continue to come back to the Lord and laying down whoever God has entrusted us to encourage and walk with before the Lord and not take up that sense of ownership or take spiritual control even over them and just become another another controlling person in their life.
Sydney Millage (46:42.497)
Absolutely. And the the model that we follow is one that Garrett Higby, Ed Welch, many, many good biblical counselors have set out looking at the
Brenda Payne (46:46.618)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (46:57.279)
The biblical model starting in Exodus, which is we cry out, we trust God, and we walk in obedience. You know, the Israelites cried out to God because of the oppression, and then they trusted God. He sent Moses and then they walked in obedience. And we see that throughout scripture. And what I have to learn as the people helper is I need to do all of those before I can teach anyone else, and I need to be modeling what it looks like.
Brenda Payne (47:05.597)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (47:27.203)
like for me to cry out on their behalf and for myself to trust God and to walk in obedience.
Brenda Payne (47:33.979)
Yeah. Yeah, that's good, thank you.
Brenda Payne (47:39.483)
Well, in your book you offer some principles for avoiding captivity and we may not have time to go into all of them, but maybe love for you just to share a few maybe the most important ones and and why they're really important. Or if you want to share all eight of them and and come back to a few of them, however you want to handle that.
Sydney Millage (47:57.058)
Sure. well right now I'm looking at I'm looking at chapter two, the ounce of prevention. I don't know if that's the chapter you were looking at specifically. Were you looking at a different chapter?
Brenda Payne (48:13.093)
you know what? I brought it on my Kindle so I don't have it up. but it was the one like the eight principles for avoiding captivity. Maybe it had to do with like healthy relationships, but I believe there were but Yeah, I just think maybe we've talked a lot about unhealth and maybe moving toward health.
Sydney Millage (48:15.569)
okay, sure.
Sydney Millage (48:22.373)
healthy versus unhealthy relationships maybe. Sure. Yeah, yeah. so I'm I will throw this out because I think it's important from from chapter two, the idea of community and not being isolated.
Brenda Payne (48:41.106)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (48:43.068)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (48:43.337)
And if you sense that you're being isolated, they're they're commanding your time, your personhood, everything about you, and there isn't room for other people, that's definitely something you need to look for. And and then it goes back to what we talked about at the very beginning of knowing yourself and knowing who God is and how he made you and how he designed you.
and and really seeking him but seeking him in the whole council of his word.
When I talk through the healthy relationship and the unhealthy relationship, I have found a number of women who have been married an extended amount of time or are on the other side of an oppressive relationship and have found this very helpful. so a healthy relationship has a sense of anticipation and excitement that grows with time, common interest, exposure, and experience.
versus what you were talking about, Brenda, that unhealthy sense of love bombing of someone who pretends like they like all the same things. They know exactly what you're talking about and everything is about you, you, you. right there, that is a a red flag. They need to be themselves.
and you're comfortable with being yourself. And it comes back to that mutuality of both people having the same value and the same worth. And
Sydney Millage (50:16.609)
Having an equal voice in the relationship as far as making decisions, being who we are. Because when God creates marriage, the two become one person. They don't become the man, right? But that's what happens in an in often an oppressive relationship. And I say the man because 90 to 95% of the time that's who the oppressor is. It's not about becoming one personality.
Brenda Payne (50:42.353)
Right.
Sydney Millage (50:43.145)
It's about two of them working together alongside each other to meet the same objectives and goals of following Christ.
Brenda Payne (50:51.556)
I like that distinction. So I think a lot of people get lost in there. A lot of women, particularly in these kind of relationships, like you said, they're gonna lose their personhood. Somebody else is gonna tell them how to think, somebody else is gonna tell them how to feel, somebody's gonna tell them what to want and what to do. And then all of a sudden they're lost and that can seem to some people that that's biblical when in fact it's not.
Sydney Millage (50:53.355)
Yeah. So
Sydney Millage (51:03.093)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (51:16.639)
And I think in many, many circles that is what is taught, is that you know submission is fill in the blank, but it always means the other person wins, right? The submissive person always accommodates. And that is not Jesus' example at all.
Brenda Payne (51:32.86)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (51:36.436)
Jesus did not let the Pharisees quote win. He didn't give in to them and their sinful demands and ways of thinking. He confronted that and he lived independent of that, always seeking to please his father. So that's what we want people, men, women, children, teams to
Brenda Payne (51:45.19)
Mm-hmm.
Sydney Millage (51:59.264)
to be living in communion with the Lord as the individuals that He has created and designed them to be, as unique individuals, who can then come alongside others in strength rather than always capitulating.
who they were meant to be.
Brenda Payne (52:20.528)
I know a lot of times I really recommend that people do pre engagement counseling.
We have some fantastic counselors where I live that engage in that kind of work. And I really, and that's not, you know, sureproof way, but if you can be go into that and be really honest, it is another set of eyes and ears, particularly if you know the two parties can meet together with the person and alone. And so even before an engagement happens, I find so often once an engagement happens, people are very reluctant to break their engagement and back out. And so having some assurance and
Sydney Millage (52:52.117)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (52:52.188)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (52:55.664)
Clarity and what you said about community is so important. I mean that's just true for our Christian life in general, that we need to encourage one another every day, as Hebrew says, right? So we're not blind, we're not hardened, we're not distractive, and get off the the way that the Lord has for us. is there anything else that you want to just add or Alex, you have any other questions about just prevention or healthy relationships as
I know there's a whole lot to cover there, you know, and I think the I think one of the things I would just say about the three of us, all of us have, you know, thirty p thirty plus years of marriage and
Sydney Millage (53:25.003)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (53:34.191)
We probably, if y'all are like me, that your your marriage has grown more healthy over time as you and your husband have reflected more of the image of Christ and as you've understood who God has made you to be and you've honored one another in that. And so it's kind of that idea of get around people who have healthy relationships, talk to people, let somebody in who has a healthy relationship. And Sydney, you were even saying part of the problem is is that so many people are coming into adulthood and into relationships without good relationships.
models and then on top of that we have the internet that pushes so much and we have pornography that has entered the picture and we have an epidemic of loneliness. People aren't getting married until they're into their 30s. And so I think there are just a lot of these contributing factors that maybe you might have to really go looking for the wisdom of what a healthy relationship looks like and you might have to really go looking for a model of what that looks like if you don't know what it is and you've not been exposed to that.
Alex Kocher (54:33.933)
Mm-hmm, so true.
Sydney Millage (54:36.513)
And I would, you know, the thing that I see more and more that leads to these relationships of captivity is fear. That women are afraid of being alone, afraid of not being known, afraid of not having security, of not having stability. and I believe that
Brenda Payne (54:45.123)
Brenda Payne (54:50.896)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (54:57.786)
Yes.
Sydney Millage (55:00.549)
it's possible that some of the men who find themselves treating others sinfully are also the it's also the result of fear, right? And they're afraid of not having control. They're afraid of not being able to make things work or or to be successful or to find what they and so
Brenda Payne (55:11.844)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (55:21.404)
Mm.
Sydney Millage (55:24.607)
Whether it's fear, whether it's pride on the part of the perpetrator, captor, whether it's fear and ignorance or a lack of knowing, that all of these are things that we can bring to the foot of the cross. They're all things we can bring to Jesus. He provides security, he provides stability, he provides safety, but all
we have to start with truth, we have to start with transparency. and we need to find that safe place. And so those of us who are involved in conversational counseling, if we can learn how to be that place that is safe.
for women to share the fears, to share the concerns, the confusion, to ask the hard questions, to look at themselves maybe in a way that they haven't felt free to look before. I think that's really our goal as women who love the Lord is is to represent him in that way.
Alex Kocher (56:19.719)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (56:28.422)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (56:30.791)
Sydney, what would you want to say to a listener who's realizing from hearing you talk that they may already be in a relationship that's abusive or controlling?
Sydney Millage (56:41.555)
It's so hard. That is so hard. so chapter eight in Thirty-seven Ways to Be Taken Captive talks about what if it's too late? and I think we've already touched on so many of those things. Looking for at what's true versus what we want it to be versus what we're hearing, looking for patterns.
seeking help, seeking resources, ultimately seeking the Lord in His Word. But we need to be very careful that we are reading the Word of God the way God intends it to be read and not necessarily the way it's been used against us. So sometimes that can be a difficult place to send people.
Brenda Payne (57:21.265)
Yeah.
Sydney Millage (57:30.325)
They can always reach out to the one eight hundred number for domestic abuse. Called to Peace Ministries has a lot of really good resources and they are a great faith based advocacy program. I've done their training.
Just start looking, start praying, start seeking the Lord, start journaling in a safe place and start looking for someone that you can talk to so that you're not isolated and you're not just hearing your own voice and the voice of of the person who's holding you captive. Are there things you ladies would add that you've seen or thought of?
Alex Kocher (58:14.415)
I just mentioned, I would imagine it's the same in dating relationships as it is in marriage relationships, that the most dangerous time for a woman in one of these relationships is when she is trying to leave. certainly to be full of care and surrounded by safe people in order to... exiting the relationship is not always a simple thing. And so I think we just need to name that women need to be careful in the way that
they get out of these relationships and stay out because we know women tend to go back that that post separation abuse whether that's in marriage or even in a dating relationship is real and is often ramped up or worse than it was in the relationship. So being surrounded by people who are safe and understand abuse dynamics and can help a woman create a safety plan for getting out of a relationship is extremely important.
Brenda Payne (59:15.737)
Yeah. I would agree with that 'cause I would even think that sometimes what we see is the danger is not necessarily physical danger, but it can be just creating more fear. It can be maligning, slandering somebody. I've had people who have called somebody's workplace to tell lies on them. you know, stirring up controversy in your family or your friend group, trying to turn people against you.
Yeah, there just can be, you know, using social media as a way to defame you. So there can be, and and again, I think this is why community is so important, people that are going to speak truth into your life, who know you, who will stand with you, because that that kind of warfare k is is particularly damaging and produces just a lot more fear of what somebody's capable of, you know.
Alex Kocher (01:00:03.106)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (01:00:05.603)
My last question would just be, Sydney, where can our listeners find you? And specifically the people helper that is listening today saying, Wow, this conversation has made me realize that maybe I'm not as equipped as I want to be or I need to be to walk alongside my friend, my sister, my aunt, my coworker, my neighbor who I'm concerned, or I just even want to know so I can prepare my daughter as she is entering into the dating years as well. Tell us a little bit about what
Alex Kocher (01:00:31.206)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (01:00:35.557)
But you provide in your ministry where we can find you and how your resources could help our listeners.
Sydney Millage (01:00:40.513)
Sure, thank you, Brenda. and and to your point earlier, it really needs to be emphasized that there is danger, and we want women to be sure they're safe and they're seeking safety before they make any changes. You can find Clarity in Action Ministries at Clarity Ministry.org. We offer a light in the darkness training, which is a five hours of training for churches seeking awareness. We lay
A foundation based on the book of Ephesians of what healthy relationships look like, God-honoring relationships. Then we talk about what domination looks like, how scripture is often misapplied, and some practical help. We do that, I do that training alongside a couple of pastors, and you can find us on the website. The other thing is the biblical victim care course, which I've mentioned. It's a 12-week class. It's offered asynchronously, which means you can do
It at your own pace within a three month period, and it's available January 1st.
April 1st, July 1st, and October 1st. So every three months you that can be accessed online. We are working to provide an audit version where you can watch the videos and get abbreviated notes. So if that is more helpful than taking the class, that is going to be available soon. And then I usually provide the live stream between Labor Day and Thanksgiving. So if you want to do it live with me and you want to engage in discussion and participation with
Brenda Payne (01:02:06.267)
Hmm.
Sydney Millage (01:02:17.505)
other people that will be coming up in September. I do still have a a WordPress site
SydneyMillage.com and there you will find information from the book Sanctuary and updates as I make changes and put other information there. There's a whole page of resources for churches or for people who may find themselves in this situation and are looking for help or direction. Those are probably the best places to send people.
Brenda Payne (01:02:51.685)
That's great. Well, Sydney, this has been very informative and our prayer will be that somebody listening today will find freedom from captivity.
And that the Lord will use this podcast with you and your ministry just to raise up a church full of men and women who are committed to truth and who are committed to walking with people in these very difficult situations that they find themselves. So thank you so much for your time and just what a joy to connect. I I feel like this will just be the first. I would love to circle back around and connect some more. So I know we just shared a lot of the same past training, a lot of growing up.
as we're moving to understand so many so much truth with so much more clarity and putting it into action as you've so well stated in your ministry title. So again, thank you and we just pray blessings for you and your ministry and your family.
Sydney Millage (01:03:47.116)
Thank you. Thank you so much, Brennan, Alex. I'm so thankful for this platform. Thank you for promoting Jesus in conversation and through providing opportunities for people to counsel, provide wisdom, come alongside one another, and thank you for making me a part and giving me an opportunity to interact with you today.