S14 Ep. 4 / "Submitting" to Abuse?: What the Church Needs to Hear
Alex Kocher (00:02.018)
We're excited today to welcome Darby Strickland to Conversational Counseling because for many years, Darby, your work has been a gift to both to us personally and in our ministries. I think long before abuse became a topic that many churches were willing to discuss, you were there helping churches understand the experiences of the vulnerable and oppressed people. And you've done that with just a wisdom and courage and compassion.
And your book, Is It Abuse, has become one of the resources we recommend most often because it gives language to the experiences of many women who struggle to just to describe what's happening to them. And it helps churches respond with clarity and with care. And then more recently, your work on trauma and your vision for churches becoming places of refuge have continued to shape how we think about counseling and discipleship and ministry.
So I'm going to do quick introduction, then we're going to give you the stage. For those of you who may not know Darby Strickland, she serves as a faculty member and counselor at CCEF, where she has served since 2003. She is the author of Is It Abuse and When It's Trauma and other numerous resources focused on helping churches care wisely for the vulnerable. Becoming a Refuge responding to domestic abuse in the church is an upcoming video series designed to equip churches to engage with domestic abuse.
in ways that are grounded in scripture, but also guided by the heart of God and then geared towards protecting the vulnerable. So Darby, we're grateful for you and for your ministry and we're very excited to have you with us today.
Darby Strickland (01:38.875)
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our time together.
Brenda Payne (01:42.494)
Well Darby, we want to start our conversation kind of with this question. You've walked with women a long time that have been harmed by abuse, but sometimes we recognize that the church's response to abuse is also hurting and harming women. And so as we begin this conversation and framing it today, why do you think the church so often struggles to see and respond to victims well? And what do you think the victims wish we knew?
that we're missing.
Darby Strickland (02:14.532)
Hmm, so much, right? The we miss so much that and when we miss so much, right, they are so hurt. I think what when I initially started working with oppressed women, and going to their churches to ask for help, it was really hard even for a trained professional to explain what was happening. Because abuse isn't just one incidence, right? It's a pattern, something's being accomplished. And so when someone's approaching a church, they're hearing a story or two stories and they just really lack an eye
Brenda Payne (02:16.253)
Right.
Darby Strickland (02:44.466)
I've discovered is the majority of the time that actually lack an imagination for what it is to live in a home. they don't have even an imagination for what abuse is. When they hear that my husband was angry, they're not imagining that he was yelling so loud that the dogs outside were barking. Or when they hear that he was upset that I spent money, they didn't hear, you know, like the fists were in the face, right? So
Alex Kocher (02:49.261)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (03:09.186)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (03:09.84)
We tend to bring content of arguments forward to churches. We churches are lacking the imagination of what it looks like to live in an abusive household. I think that's a huge barrier. So when I'm training my students, I often say, We people will bring you content of a conflict.
Brenda Payne (03:19.324)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (03:27.581)
Hmm.
Darby Strickland (03:28.764)
But you need to know what the screenplay was. And I think as people helpers in churches, we hear about a conflict and we get to problem solving. We don't really look to discover what was it like in that moment. You know, were you sitting down at the kitchen table having this conversation like me and my husband would, right? Filling in the blanks from our own lives? Or am I gonna r ask questions where I find out, no, he was following you room to room and the conflict lasted two hours. So in part, I think a huge barrier for churches is
Alex Kocher (03:31.512)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (03:31.569)
No.
Brenda Payne (03:37.661)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (03:42.375)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (03:54.872)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (03:58.741)
when there are good men, right, they lack the imagination what evil men will do. and I think that's huge. and there are other barriers. I think it just runs up against all sorts of doctrine in the church about repentance, divorce, complementarianism, authority, right? So we have a lot of fear when we approach the subject. And anytime we approach a subject with fear
Brenda Payne (04:04.573)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (04:04.771)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (04:23.428)
It's really difficult, right? Like I'm a homeschooling mom and you mention long division to children and they just freak out, right? Because this is overwhelming, complicated process. You make one mistake, everything goes wrong. But if you teach your children, you don't you you pose it to them in a way like we can do this, it's just a bunch of steps and you're gonna learn each step.
Brenda Payne (04:28.79)
Hehehehehe
Darby Strickland (04:40.176)
The fear isn't overwhelming them and they can walk through it. We don't learn when we're afraid. And I think abuse touches on things a lot of churches are just afraid of. Afraid of getting wrong for good reasons. just unfortunately, then their unwillingness to grapple is really hurtful for the people who need their help. So those are probably two of the larger reasons that I usually run into.
Brenda Payne (04:45.437)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (04:49.277)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (04:58.141)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (05:04.634)
Mm, yeah. Yeah, when you say imagination, the first one I was I was thinking about my very first abuse case that was so difficult because I was learning on the fly and the feedback I kept getting was, Well, Alex, I've gotten mad and I've thrown the remote. And you know, cause that was like they were taking this, like you said, very complex, patterned.
Brenda Payne (05:04.779)
that's so good.
Brenda Payne (05:14.269)
It
Darby Strickland (05:31.408)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (05:31.606)
relationship and reducing it down to one or two incidents that they could relate to. And they're and then the question was, so I guess you think I'm abusive too. And and it was like, how do I how do I paint this picture? And how do I do it when I'm mediating a lot of these discussions between the woman and the church leader? And they're not having to sit and see her face and hear her voice. And I'm mediating that and taking away some of the impact.
Darby Strickland (05:49.648)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (05:52.22)
Yep.
Darby Strickland (05:57.287)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (06:01.519)
of of what's really happening. And yet I'm doing that to try to help her and protect her and not put her in positions where she's gonna be abused, you know, by the church's response. So the imagination thing just really resonated with me.
Brenda Payne (06:18.845)
Yeah
Darby Strickland (06:20.718)
It is quite Yeah, and I think even when I first started working with women, I had a right and so I was never treated this way. I never had seen abuse up close. So I remember some of the advice I gave. It was a difficult conversation. Like why don't I remember saying to a one woman so naively, Well, why don't you just bake in like some favorite cookies and like sit down and have a conversation? And she came back to me and he said he threw the cookies at me 'cause he said if you really loved me you would know my
I love peanut butter cookies and not chocolate chip. And I was like, this is this is totally a different right, right? But if she wasn't brave enough to come back and to tell me what my bad advice had what that actually looked like, I wouldn't have known. Right. And so yeah, I'm poor victim like in the sense that we are really there's such a burden on victims to have to explain their world.
Alex Kocher (06:53.013)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (07:09.399)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (07:09.597)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Darby Strickland (07:17.872)
And you think about how confused they already are, like right? Like so many people would have thought, well, I should have known. Or and they might not have reported that because they would feel shame for how they were treated. And so it just becomes this barrier even for victims to tell us how grotesque and horrific some of these interactions are. Yeah. When we miss it, right? Yeah, go ahead.
Brenda Payne (07:18.375)
You
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (07:37.554)
Yeah, I think another, yes, yeah, I was just gonna say, I think that just speaks into this other barrier that oftentimes a woman who's been in an abusive relationship is presenting as emotionally unstable and anxious and unable to communicate. And I do remember early on sitting with some women before I really understood what was going on is looking at them going like, wait, there are big gaps in their story and they just seem to be like majoring on the minors and.
Alex Kocher (07:39.861)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (07:51.215)
I agree.
Brenda Payne (08:06.361)
And then, you you bring somebody else in who knows nothing and you're trying to help them see there's abuse going on and the lady literally looks like she's just crazy. And so what is happening? Explain to our listeners, what is happening when we face a woman who may be looking like she's just crazy and she's all these different things, but she's actually in a destructive relationship.
Darby Strickland (08:29.434)
Yeah, I think that's what it's if there's one thing to take away, it's when someone feels their their story is disorganized or repetitive or doesn't add up. That should actually make us curious and not judgmental, right? And so if someone can't tell you a story that has a beginning, middle, and end, there's a reason for that, right? And it's usually because they have are so confused because of how the abuse have been told that it's their fault, that they're wrong, that they what they remember is inaccurate.
Alex Kocher (08:43.031)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (08:59.428)
like their whole reality is twisted they don't even know what is true often speaking up in their world often they get interrupted or mocked right so they learn to stop speaking right saying what is true often is punitive so they're so now they're afraid like what's gonna happen when I tell you this yeah there's all sorts of ways that the traumatic experience of domestic abuse actually in it it steals voice it steals story it steals order
Brenda Payne (09:19.421)
Hmm.
Darby Strickland (09:29.268)
I think the best way I've been able to describe to people, we know we know that's true, because if you've been in a car accident and the first time you try to say what happened, right, you get out of the car and you're like, well, I don't know. I came and all of a sudden the blue car was there and hit the side and like we make no sense.
But like two days later, we can say, Okay, when I approach the stop site on Main Street, I stopped at the stop sign as I pulled forward. The car blew the stop sign and it hit my right. We can in time order the story. So we all have experiences where we're so heightened, we're so afraid that it disrupts our ability to tell our story. And so when someone's living in that for years often, months, intense episode after intense episode, it just disrupts the way that we organize story. But if we relate, I just think we
Relating it to something we've all experienced is helpful. It's not it's not an unknown experience, right? So if someone is just so disordered, so chaotic, it's usually because something is so upsetting or does not make sense to them. And it should cause us to be curious.
Brenda Payne (10:24.145)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (10:31.305)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Darby, are there other signs that a woman could be experiencing abuse when there's not physical violence? So you're talking about that disordered thinking, chaotic communication. What else do you look for?
Brenda Payne (10:31.389)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that.
Darby Strickland (10:52.696)
a lot of I think said this a different way, but a lot of uncertainty. So early on a lot of them would come to me with like new paper. You know, they'd come in and they'd be having written it out saying, I think this is what happened, this is what I think I said, but I'm not sure because he said this, or piles and piles of journals is one. another thing is over responsibility and that they're repenting for everything. it's often like I'm I'm repenting of I'm not respecting my husband.
Brenda Payne (11:06.877)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (11:13.165)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (11:22.64)
I have no sexual desire for my husband. I'm failing at mothering. I'm just so I can't keep up with my husband intellectually. He's frustrated with me. And so they're owning all the criticism that they're hearing. And that's really disorienting for a helper, right? Because they're they're putting themselves to you as if they are the issue.
Brenda Payne (11:25.821)
Hmm.
Darby Strickland (11:43.859)
that's that's one sometimes when they're together, like if you see them in small group or in church, which oftentimes we see women in context, is that not answering a question until she looks to her husband, being really quiet, waiting. I often think of a couple men in my church, one would like jingle the keys and she would end every conversation and then have to leave. right, just the scurrying, like very orbited around.
Alex Kocher (11:43.947)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (11:58.408)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (12:10.948)
right everything that he's directed she can and can't say. So feel being really small, I would be another way of saying it in relationships. Or even in friendships, right? 'Cause that can trigger other relationships as well. Yeah. So those are some of the bigger I mean we've seen a lot of them, but
Brenda Payne (12:11.037)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (12:17.195)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (12:18.493)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (12:23.933)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (12:24.435)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (12:28.966)
Those those are some of the more subtle ways because and another one that most women will encounter in a relationship is they'll just be asked a question. So they'll be s I often find an oppressed woman that will offer what I call a trial balloon. So they might come to you and they might say, like, you know, is your husband most of your children?
Alex Kocher (12:45.941)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (12:46.439)
Hmm.
Darby Strickland (12:50.572)
Or how often does your husband want sex? Right. And we love to just answer with whatever. Well, but I think those are the moments where they're trying to figure something out. And I'm like, well, why are you asking? Right? Is your husband what is your husband? Is he jealous of your kids? Tell me more about that. Instead of talking about my marriage, you know, and making a joke about, yeah, my husband liked to clean her house, right? Right when we didn't have kids or something, right? actually asking why they're asking. So I find that oppressed women often ask a question about something they're
Brenda Payne (13:02.493)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (13:11.835)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (13:20.446)
wrestling with and it gives you the opportunity. Another one's like, you know, does your husband ever ignore you? Right? Just screw so though they're trying to like, is that normal? and that's just saying, well, why are you asking? Does your husband ignore you often? That's some way that we can get help them open up and see things differently.
Alex Kocher (13:22.093)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (13:26.685)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (13:38.859)
Yeah, that's really good.
Brenda Payne (13:41.521)
Darby, as a people helper and thinking about our listeners who are wanting to come alongside women who might be in abusive relationships, just in terms of understanding abuse and understanding trauma and really, because I think it all has to start with this understanding and awareness. What have you found has been the best way? Because it can be overwhelming. You've got two great books. There's training tracks out there. There's a lot of information on the internet.
Darby Strickland (14:04.774)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (14:08.914)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (14:09.851)
What have you found has been your best education and how would you encourage someone to even begin to really step into this world so they have the knowledge? Like you've just listed so many great things and I'm like, man, anybody listening wants to catalog all of those to start, you know, having some antennas up for that. How did that journey look for you?
Darby Strickland (14:22.106)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (14:30.682)
I think what helped me understand what abuse was was understanding what motivated it. So when I came to understand that entitlement drives abuse, that the an oppressor is about self-worship, wanting their world the way that they want it, and they're willing to punish others. which we've seen scripture with bad kings, with the story of Abimelech that I use, it's and and in judges, when we see that pattern from scripture about an entitled heart and self-worship.
and the willingness to harm somebody else. That then gave me things to map behaviors on. Because we observe behaviors, we observe the impact. We often, right, in a press relationship, we observe the impact. And then we have to draw out from the woman what behaviors she's experiencing that cause her to have that impact.
Alex Kocher (15:20.001)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (15:20.327)
You
Darby Strickland (15:20.592)
But if I can understand what was fueling oppression, all of a sudden the behaviors of the oppressor made sense. Right. There's a comfortableness behind what's happening. Right. I think culture has often said, well, you know, that's just temper. That's just anger. That's just frustration. Like so and then if he's just frustrated, then you can just serve your spouse better.
Brenda Payne (15:26.918)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (15:30.343)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (15:35.911)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (15:43.228)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (15:43.847)
But if you understand it's not frustration, it's actually taking anger is used to take control, right?
Alex Kocher (15:50.059)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (15:51.139)
then you start understanding differently. Yeah. So I would say anything I've written on entitlement, which I think is in it in its abuse, the chapter on entitlement, that really was the game changer for me. So that when women were telling me their stories and they'd say he would interrupt me or he would mock me, I was like, that fits in the entitlement. He doesn't have to listen to you. He only has to listen to himself. So those kind of features
Brenda Payne (16:00.614)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (16:04.764)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (16:14.476)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (16:18.584)
They they make sense of it for me.
Brenda Payne (16:21.18)
Yeah, that's good. you. Thank you for that's just a good I mean, I know there's so much to learn but what a great starting place for somebody who really is doesn't know where to start. I love that.
Alex Kocher (16:21.308)
Mm. Mm.
Darby Strickland (16:28.23)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (16:33.38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember, I think I even remember when that article came out, Darby, because I think it came out first as an article. I think we used to say like selfishness or insecurity, but entitlement put another let layer on it for me and definitely brought more understanding. And then from the other side, I think what helped me from the behavioral aspect was recognizing. I think it's Stephen Tracy was the first one that kind of helped me see the abuse.
Darby Strickland (16:40.528)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (16:47.9)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (17:03.254)
Uses an attack on a on the Mago Day on personhood and the degrading of a person and so much of the things that you named. Woman gets small, she gets uncertain of herself, there's this like erasing of self because there's an assault on her personhood that's coming out of that entitlement.
Darby Strickland (17:06.46)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (17:25.104)
Right, which is God and I think we forget that God gave dominion in the garden too. Right. Right. And so it we're not just to receive instructions and carry them out. We're allowed to think, create, beautify, and do all these things. And when that's taken away from you, you lose how you were who you were created as. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (17:29.515)
Right.
Brenda Payne (17:29.936)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Alex Kocher (17:45.888)
Yeah, yeah. So Darby, why is it often so difficult for women to identify and then disclose abuse for themselves?
Brenda Payne (17:45.948)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Darby Strickland (17:57.156)
Yeah, I think there's a there's a variety of reasons. One I think is right as you're being mistreated, you're told it's your fault.
Alex Kocher (18:05.036)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (18:05.903)
Right. They're not they're not simply just I'll I'll take abuse 'cause I see that so prevalently, right? They're not simply just coercing or demanding sex. They're saying, I have to do this because you're a prude or you're attractive or you were promiscuous as a high schooler, right? They they are giving you the narrative and and the way to interpret what's happening to you. So
Alex Kocher (18:30.123)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (18:31.513)
victims think it's their fault. and that is just really it's just really hard to come out from under those accusations. Because there's always a little bit of truth, just like Satan, right? There's always just a little bit of truth that is used an exploitative way and twisted in such a vile way. I think that's one reason. Another reason is just the way that oppressors operate, they are one way at home.
Alex Kocher (18:44.108)
Sure.
Darby Strickland (18:59.425)
Right, one way in public. So everyone else typically is admiring them, thinking they're wondering wonderful, they can be successful, or even in the home. As soon as an abusive incident is over, often abuse continues by the repair, right? They're manipulating to get you off your feet by being wonderful again and kind, right? And so you never know who you're gonna get, and then you think there's something wrong with you.
Brenda Payne (19:03.387)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (19:26.089)
because of the inconsistency in how they're presenting themselves, right? They're not just horrible all the time, often. So that can be very confusing. Oftentimes they they do things because they want to repair the relationship for themselves. Not in the way that the Lord would have them genuinely repent. But that's very confusing to victims. I can think of a few victims I work with that'll they'll come in and they'll say, Yeah, I don't I don't even know why I'm coming. This week went fine.
Alex Kocher (19:29.98)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (19:54.982)
Because like the last two days were okay. I was like, well on Friday you emailed me that this episode happened. And there's a way that our minds they have to forget or suppress to continue to live in the environment. So I I think that is another huge factor, right? You can't keep living with the memory at the front of your mind because it's not endurable. So you're clinging to what is good. Yeah. Or in the last moment.
Alex Kocher (20:00.574)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (20:01.914)
Yep.
Brenda Payne (20:05.681)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (20:05.717)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (20:12.179)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (20:17.851)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (20:22.87)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (20:25.168)
How have you personally found to be the best ways to create a safe environment for a woman to be able to identify and disclose abuse?
Darby Strickland (20:37.903)
Yeah, I think abuse is such a big word. No one wants their marriage to be abusive. And so if I have a woman coming in and I s and she's telling me a story and I'm thinking, this is like abuse because the pattern is pretty clear. It's pretty even if I hear early on and I have clarity, I will not use the word abuse early on. It's just too much. and then they'll feel the need to say, Well, I forgot to say all these wonderful things about my husband.
Brenda Payne (21:06.544)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (21:06.799)
So what I try to do is I I think of it in buckets. Like I'll listen to a couple of stories and I'll try to think, gosh, that just sounds like he was really dismissive of your concerns. Or he was unmining you, or mocking you. Like I might just pick three buckets and then story after story I kind of sort in those three buckets. Well this just seems like another instant where he was dismissing you. Or another one would be like indifferent to your pain. Right. So I'm taking
Brenda Payne (21:18.288)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (21:28.678)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (21:36.112)
the ways that we would describe abuse and I'm thinking about the th ways that it's most showing up in her home after listening to her, then I'm sorting it into those buckets for her. And so then she'll come back to me and say, you know, he dismissed me again this week. Or there was a moment that really showed no care of my person. she's getting it. She's seeing the pattern. And then we can talk about what those patterns mean. So and then I'm giving her opportunity for her to share with me. And I'm asking, you know, what where
husband serving you well. So she's not feeling like I'm gonna vilify him that I actually know him and I understand the contours of the relationship. And I think that's hard for a helper because we see we understand what's happening with some of those things, but we do need to take the time to know how she experiences him. And you know, not every oppressor is bad all the time, right? So they're they they too are image bearers and so we don't want to miss where they are they are. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (22:16.412)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (22:17.096)
That's a great point. I understand what's happening with the team.
Brenda Payne (22:25.084)
Hmm.
Right.
Alex Kocher (22:29.004)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (22:35.534)
No, think that's... Well, I've certainly been guilty of that early on. I can think of, you know, least a few ladies I sprung the abuse word too soon. Like you said, just so eager because it was so clear to me. And then you just scared them to death and they're reeling and, you know, it just becomes a... Yeah, you kind of can derail things. So we do have to be patient and gentle. And I like what you said, too, that there are good times and they've had children together often. And, you know, they've had some memories that are good. And of course, that makes it even all the more confusing.
Darby Strickland (22:35.737)
What what they're doing well.
Darby Strickland (22:49.093)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (23:05.115)
but necessary. talking about fear and subjects that make churches fearful and make counselors and people helpers fearful is when you begin to sense that there's enough danger that maybe separation needs to occur and even safety planning.
needs to happen. And I know, I know for me, like we talk about, you've got the side of let's say church leadership that's afraid we're going to move people towards separation and divorce. But then I feel like as a people helper, I'm afraid that a church isn't going to be okay with their person being able to separate for safety, right? So you've got a lot of this fear coming together that's kind of opposite sides. And I know fear is just so polarizing. But when, when, you know,
Darby Strickland (23:34.737)
Separation. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Brenda Payne (23:47.888)
kind of when should we begin to consider that somebody needs to be thinking about separation? And I know safety planning is a whole big thing, but maybe just a little bit to let our listeners know that kind of when we should be thinking about this, if and how we should encourage it, and then just a little bit about the necessity of safety planning. And if somebody's helping someone, they need to get some training on how to do that.
Darby Strickland (23:56.652)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (24:11.639)
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think like as Christians, we know that repentance sin continues to harden someone's heart and the amount of sin always increases and its intensity. Right. And so we are not expecting things in a relationship to remain at the level of abuse that they're at. It's always intensifying. So I think that's just a helpful principle for us to know. I'm always screening for safety early on. You know, if I'm hearing stories of abuse, I'm asking, well, you know, is the
ever shoved you or are driven recklessly. So I'm asking some of those questions. Not again, is there physical abuse? That's too big of a word. But more, yeah, h have you ever been afraid of him or hurt by him? Trying to gain some of those things. from a physicality point of view, I'm nervous anytime
That there's closed fists, yeah, strangulation. I'm worried about lethal violence, threat of a weapon, threat of suicide. Those things are gaining my attention.
Things that actually also pose lethal lethality is when someone is highly jealous or suspicious or has any kind of stalking behavior if their phone's being monitored, they're being constantly accused of adultery, those things increase the risk to me as well. So I use just a safety assessment tool for that, you know. Getting into this work, there's no way to know all the risk factors. but possessiveness and yeah, anything that's a threat to life and yeah.
Brenda Payne (25:19.61)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (25:43.48)
then I'm screening for those things and doing a safety plan. I think the first part of your question was, and any kind of physical force around sex or coercion, right? And that's one that we often overlook. what do we do with that? Right? Because victims, even though we're often telling them I I I'm concerned for you, this feels dangerous, they're not always willing to change.
And so often hope or there's a great tension. The other thing outside of those is when somebody just isn't doing well, right? You have someone who has chronic migraines, their body is completely falling apart. It almost doesn't matter what they're enduring. It just matters that they're not making it. Right. And so sometimes the impact on the person, right? They're not able to get out of bed.
Brenda Payne (26:21.392)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (26:25.04)
Yep.
Brenda Payne (26:32.058)
Yep.
Darby Strickland (26:35.375)
They're not able to parent, right? Their depression is so great. The physical anxiety is wreaking havoc on those on their body as well. Their thinking is so confused that they can't have a coherent conversation. Those are also times that we consider just like a separation for rest and clarity. so yeah, yeah.
Brenda Payne (26:54.137)
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you saying that as well, because that was going to be my follow-up question. When there's not physical danger, but we see a woman's falling apart physically, emotionally, mentally, and it's just not functioning well.
Darby Strickland (26:59.695)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (27:06.315)
So yeah, that time is really good. And I would just say there's a lot of good information on safety planning. You know, and of course in situations, I think when we get into separation and safety planning, we're now looking at getting other people involved in a team and, you know, asking this woman, can we invite some other people in? Because it's probably getting bigger than us at that point and they need more support anyway. And we need more support. probably, you know, depending on where you are in your people helping skills, you may need
Alex Kocher (27:06.441)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (27:30.609)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (27:36.142)
to grab some people who are ahead of you in that. And that's one thing we really encourage on the podcast is like, know where you are and be faithful to that. Paul told the Philippians is like, walk in the truth you have, know what you know and walk in that. at the same time, if there are things you don't know, that's not, that's no shame for the people helper. It's only a shame if you don't go get help and find somebody who can help you better support the woman who's in the abusive situation. So thank you. That was really good.
Alex Kocher (27:49.375)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (27:57.382)
Mm. Yeah.
Darby Strickland (28:04.804)
That's so funny that I actually put that when I'm training people. The hard thing is you don't know what you don't know. Right, right, so right, so it's like, but call the domestic violence hotline, text them and saying, I'm talking to someone and this is what they're saying. What am I missing? What should I be asking? How can I get an advocate, find an advocate? Right. Because w yeah.
Brenda Payne (28:10.745)
That's right. That's right.
Darby Strickland (28:25.902)
We don't know what we don't know if we haven't walked the this through this before. And I, even I, after all the cases that I've done, when I sense that there's danger, I involve other people every time. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (28:35.763)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (28:35.993)
Well, and I love what you said too, call the domestic hotline, because I think so often as Christians, we might not think that that is a place we should go, right? Like, well, they're not Christians and they're not going to put a Bible verse. And so why would you encourage that?
Darby Strickland (28:51.256)
Mm.
Well, they see pattern behavior, they have resources, they're going to make us alert to things that we're not aware of. So they might just give you guidance to say, Well, there's this local shelter, there's a support group in your area, or you know what reported this behavior, you need to go back and check, is she being monitored? So you need to ask or like have your cell phone. You should probably stop communicating with her in ways that can be overheard. They're just gonna have a different set of concerns because experience, right? Out their observation.
Brenda Payne (28:58.266)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (29:19.598)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (29:21.618)
observation of hundreds of thousands of cases, patterns are gonna lead them to help you ask better questions where then you get to apply the biblical wisdom, right? And disciple her with Christ through it. But again, there's just an expertise because they've seen things again and again and again.
Brenda Payne (29:35.151)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (29:40.688)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (29:41.056)
And and I find those agencies take away the we know a context when a woman's coming from a church situation in particular, and sometimes we kind of know what we're we and sh she is gonna be up against if she discloses in her church environment. And I find that those civic people helpers, like they they they don't have they they're removing all that and it's just kind of like it's just a fax, ma'am. Let's just like here's what's happening, here's what you need to look for, and here's
Brenda Payne (30:08.591)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (30:08.901)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (30:11.059)
needs to happen if this happens next. And they their judgment is has been so helpful to me in several different cases because it's not clouded by too much context. There's there's a thing is the right amount of context.
Darby Strickland (30:21.188)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (30:23.771)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (30:25.751)
Yeah, yeah.
I mean and their goal often is they they look at it at the lens of empowering victims, right? We would think of it as shepherding victims, but they would never want to take over a victim's agency in the same way that we wouldn't, right? So they're typically not gonna overstep her relationship with the Lord or criticize the church. That's not their goal, right? Their goal is to remove her agency. It's actually to restore it. And we share that, right?
Alex Kocher (30:34.387)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (30:37.082)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (30:41.088)
Right.
Brenda Payne (30:41.178)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (30:46.202)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (30:48.874)
Right.
Alex Kocher (30:53.587)
Right. Yeah, very well said. Mm-hmm. So Darby, the oftentimes children are involved and we know that Christians in the church often want to preserve marriage almost at the as the highest priority, but how do you respond when children are being exposed to ongoing abuse?
Brenda Payne (30:53.785)
Yes, yes, it looks so beautiful.
Darby Strickland (31:12.443)
So glad you asked that. Actually, Michael Gimbel and I are working on a book about divorce, such cases of this. And that's one of the chapters. It's talking about when a child is in an environment that's abuse, high conflict, or high deception, whether it's adultery or addiction. What is a children picking up? Right? What are the children in the home picking up? Right? Children are active interpreters, just like we are, right? And so what are the values? What are they understanding about the world? How
How are they being shaped? So many women that when I first started counseling them, my first cases of abuse I guess I call them.
They really wanted to stay together their house for the sake of the children, right? Everyone was saying, For the sake of the children, for the sake of the children. It was so grievous is when their children reached adulthood. They wanted nothing to do with the church that let their mother be treated this way. They wanted nothing to do with a faith that had that representation in their home. And it was just really eye opening to discover she they thought she thought she was serving her children well, but the home was misrepresenting the Lord.
Brenda Payne (31:56.091)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (32:21.583)
Right. And it doesn't mean you have to leave to represent the Lord better in your home. You have to be very understanding of what your children are passively picking up. And I think tremendous harm is done to children in that environment, but the greatest is often their relationship with the Lord.
Alex Kocher (32:30.858)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (32:39.05)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (32:39.939)
forgetting the trauma, the you know, them blaming themselves, the anxiety, all the things that they're learning about the value of women or how sex is used as a bargaining tool. They're learning all these things in their environment. But what often's great the greatest damage is their ability to connect to the Lord and understand how he views people and women in particular.
Brenda Payne (33:04.095)
One of the things we're kind of leaning into is just how abusers often hide in the church. And so why do you think, because we're talking about families, we're talking about children who grow up and daddy's going to church and he's the deacon and mama sings in the choir and they show up Sunday and everything's pretty and then the rest of the week is terrible at home. And so
Darby Strickland (33:16.762)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (33:29.871)
Why do you think it is so attractive? Like the church is such an attractive place for abusers to be able to hide.
Darby Strickland (33:38.428)
Think the church makes it easy for abusers to hide because we say things like believe the best, right? repent of your own sin first, right? Don't talk about somebody else until you talk about yourself, right? So there's something about our system that abusers who are master manipulators, right, they can manipulate parts of what is beautiful about Christianity to serve their ends. So it makes a great place for them to camouflage.
Brenda Payne (33:49.391)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:04.464)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (34:07.433)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:07.6)
Hmm.
Darby Strickland (34:07.749)
Right. and that that is
probably not explain this well. But that is what I I have seen because we tend to be so trusting, because we believe in grace and forgiveness, because we believe in total depravity. Because right, there's all these, but not theirs, right? Well they would not have their total depravity on the table, just their spouses, right? But there's certain doctrines that they easily can manipulate and they camouflage to look like a sheep. But they actually have the fangs of a wolf. And we miss it.
Brenda Payne (34:17.85)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:17.866)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (34:23.995)
Mm-hmm.
Hehehehehe
Brenda Payne (34:34.747)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (34:40.499)
I even think about this is when I when I was being raised in the church they almost said to me well it doesn't matter who you marry because no matter who you marry you're just going to be marrying someone else's sin so ask yourself can I live with that person's sin? I was like as an adult I was like that's really interesting like it should have been no there's actually qualities in people that are deal breakers
Brenda Payne (34:55.547)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (35:01.583)
Right. We shouldn't level all sin, right? But there's something like think right, right. Yeah. So what qualities are characteristics and there's a lot in scripture that, you know, disunity, there's all sorts of things in scripture, tying binds, being legalistic that scripture says are deal breakers, right? Divisiveness, put them out, have nothing to do
Brenda Payne (35:01.755)
Right? Right, right!
Brenda Payne (35:20.463)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (35:24.826)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (35:24.909)
with lovers of self, right? All but we tend somehow to those things. and oppressors take advantage of that. So I think we've we don't call evil evil anymore. I don't know how else to say that. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (35:38.108)
No. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and think you start off saying too, that good men have, with good imaginations, have a hard time imagining, you know, evil men like that. I think that was just, that's tweetable right there. That's so good. I love that. Yeah. And there was something else you said that just sparked a thought, but now it's gone. So maybe it'll come back. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (35:39.72)
Yeah. Yeah.
Darby Strickland (35:46.897)
Mm, mm.
Alex Kocher (35:53.732)
It is, yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (36:05.054)
Well, when you were talking, Darby, I was thinking there are all these mistakes that we make in the way that we teach to kind of set to allow abusers to hide. But then what are the mistakes that the church makes when we're responding to abuse disclosures when a woman is willing to come forward? And then what does the church do that either further endangers her or or simply doesn't help her?
Darby Strickland (36:30.649)
Yeah, I think the one thing is we don't we don't believe accounts. Right. So if someone says this is happening, it's like, well, how do I know there's two sides? I haven't heard the other side. Right. And so we we overrely on our right. We overrely on our ability, right, to decipher two sides versus no, actually there is one reality.
Brenda Payne (36:35.919)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (36:35.997)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (36:41.763)
gosh.
Brenda Payne (36:42.715)
We hear that all the time. Yeah.
Darby Strickland (36:53.071)
And my job is actually to figure out what that is. There's two b different people. They are going to bring maybe two different narratives, but there really is only one story. Right. and it is it is knowable actually. It's not unknowable because there's often ways to verify things. So it's being overwhelmed. I think churches think I don't know how to verify, right? So I'm not even gonna try. it is looking at a victim, I think, who is confused, self-doubting, reporting her own sin.
Brenda Payne (37:15.675)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (37:22.995)
Right and and not being willing to slow down and be more curious about why that's happening. I think often the church makes its greatest mistakes in discovery.
Brenda Payne (37:23.983)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (37:24.904)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (37:30.533)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (37:35.718)
When I work with pastors who call and ha have a bunch of details and they're not able to make sense of it, as soon as we start to like slow it down and look at some of the like those entitlement things we talked about earlier. These behaviors aren't random. You're like, what are they actually affording somebody? Right. once they start to put those things together, pastors they they almost the tears come. I am so sorry, I miss this. So it's usually in the discovery and the willingness to see a patterned behavior.
Brenda Payne (37:35.963)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (38:05.721)
that right then you might have different barriers of you know we're a married permanence church or we're afraid to go the route of separation because of course that's always going to lead to divorce you might have other barriers but I find the gr but those kind of wrestle through in a different way but the first barrier is actually seeing and then I think like you're saying if they're talking to the victim and praying for her
Brenda Payne (38:17.198)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (38:25.274)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (38:30.371)
and willing to enter into her story, they're gonna be compelled to enter into scripture's story to see what the response is. If they're like if they remain distant from a victim, right, she's she's not a person to that.
Right, she's a problem to be managed. So that's another thing I try to do is you know, can I have we have an elder call her every week and just ask her how to be praying? And they hear the stories, they experience the tears, they know what she's been trying and reading and how she's been praying. Then I think they're able to connect with her and invest in her in a different way versus gosh, this is a case of abuse. I'm gonna get it wrong. Is it really abuse? Am I setting a precedent? All their fear, right? Versus, no, the Lord's charged me with knowing and love.
Brenda Payne (38:45.998)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (38:46.322)
Yes.
Darby Strickland (39:13.693)
How do I tend to her? And what does scripture say to her? Right? I it's not I'm not setting a precedent then. I'm just tending to one person that the Lord has placed on my heart. That that I have helped I find helps move them through some of those objections that come later in the process.
Alex Kocher (39:24.442)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (39:31.758)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (39:31.957)
Mm.
Yeah, and I like what you're saying. I don't like it, but I identify with the failure to recognize patterns, even in the way you said it. that pastor who's calling you is doing something so essential in just seeking out seeking the the counsel of someone who does help them recognize the patterns. And I think again, we're to we we have to mention that in churches so often we close ourselves off from outside help, whether that's
in the evangelical community or just in our in our communities at large and it takes other voices and other eyes on these situations to be able to see these patterns and yeah if I could wish one thing it would be that that we would we would avail ourselves of the help that we have because we we certainly aren't aren't saying when we say that churches are making these mistakes that we expect pastors to be experts on all of these things.
but we are imploring them to seek outside help and counsel for people who understand the dynamics of abuse.
Darby Strickland (40:43.569)
Yeah, and I would say the best cases that I worked through with the church with a pastor who was a learner. Right. So even after talking to me, maybe he he was so most times I will have one conversation with a pastor where the light bulb goes off. And I think this is helpful for your listeners to know. I often have to have ten or twenty conversations with a church for them to be like, now we get it. So if I go in going, Okay, it's gonna be a process of bringing them to understanding, I need to bring them questions to
Brenda Payne (40:48.548)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (40:48.575)
yes.
Brenda Payne (41:06.979)
Mmm.
Darby Strickland (41:13.583)
Right. I'm it's a process of education and bringing them along. But some of the best pastors will call somebody else in their presbytery. Dealt with this before. They'll Hey, what can I read or who else can I talk to? Right? They're gonna be learning. And if you have someone who's learning, it's okay that they're slower, right? You just want encourage, right? But if you have someone who what I call willfully ignorant,
Alex Kocher (41:31.082)
Sure.
Brenda Payne (41:36.27)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (41:36.335)
you know, is so certain perspective that's when we know we're carrying someone for that sheep, we have to now think about managing their pastoral response because it most likely is going to be harmful if they're not willing to learn. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (41:49.855)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (41:49.979)
Yeah, let me just say those of you who do abuse counseling, that is your place that God has you. I just have so much respect for because I feel like you're so exhausting to enter in with somebody and be patient and do the work and help carry that burden and shoulder that with a woman. But then when you have to feel like you have to spend
20 hours to educate their church, you know, and you're basically trying to get that church on your side. And my experience has been that pastors that aren't educated, there's such a, so much fear of divorce, a divorce happening or moving somebody, you know, a couple toward divorce, that I'll find the pastor will give directives for the wife to move home. But he's saying, I don't counsel, I don't know anything about.
abuse or trauma. I just think, I just think it can't be a part. She's just got to come home. And so you've got this like, it's like, what part of me would make me want to send my woman home when you are basing your decision on no knowledge and no real wisdom in the situation? And so
Sometimes I just find that very exhausting and very exasperating, but I just appreciate Darby you because I feel like this is a fight you've gotten in in a loving way, in a gracious way, and you're and you're willing to go the distance. And I think that's that's what it's going to take. think it's women are crucial. They're crucial because most of these disclosures are going to happen to with another woman. They're going to happen in relationships as we walk with women.
Darby Strickland (43:06.309)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Darby Strickland (43:17.733)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (43:19.94)
We're gonna begin to hear things. A woman is more likely to open up to another woman than to her pastor and that sort of thing. And so it's really gonna take a commitment for us to be willing to go the long haul, not just with the woman, but also with the church until such a time that, you know, if the church isn't willing to learn.
But it's just, I mean, it's just exhausting. And so I'm just so thankful that there are counselors and advocates that do nothing, but like they know this is their call and this is what they're committed to. But we need, but we need so many more, you know, people that can do that. And that would be my prayer even from our podcast today that women and church leaders and just people in the church would be motivated to get equipped.
There wasn't a question in that. That was just my rant.
Darby Strickland (44:07.351)
I think it is no, yeah, no, you're right, you're right. And it and I and I I
Alex Kocher (44:12.601)
Ha ha ha ha.
Darby Strickland (44:14.363)
But it it it does stem from like you know, Luke four and Jesus' first words of public public ministry, the vulnerable were on his heart. Right? He came to free the oppressed, right? And all all these wonderful promises. And we often think that's not the mission of the church. But actually his concerns should become ours. And the vulnerable were always on the front of his mind. and it is very missional. Like you move into these situations and the way it changes not just a wife, but the
Alex Kocher (44:21.872)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (44:25.135)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (44:32.922)
That's right.
Alex Kocher (44:38.205)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (44:38.255)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (44:44.337)
children, the surrounding friendships, the culture of the church. It's so much when you do an abuse case well, so many people are impacted. Faith is increased. The Lord is seen so differently. Yeah, that's we often think, if it ends in a divorce, it's going to testify against the Lord.
Brenda Payne (44:45.304)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (44:54.361)
Yeah.
Darby Strickland (45:04.079)
But so much more has happened and the Lord has shown up in so many other glorious ways. and we miss that. Yeah. The church is sh is short vision. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (45:06.681)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well, as we start kind of winding down our time, I think that just brings us to this curriculum that you are launching, Becoming a Refuge, the training and maybe tell us a little bit about that training. What is the gap you're trying to fill and who's going to most benefit from that training, Darby?
Darby Strickland (45:33.466)
Yeah, it's training that is geared towards churches. because again, like you're saying, most women are going to come forward in their church, whether to another woman in church, and that woman's often gonna have to bring it to leadership. And so it's a seven hour course, but it's it's done into two parts. One is for everybody in the church, it's like a three hour training, maybe three and a half hour training, which says this is what abuse is, the types of abuse, how you recognize it, and what's on God's hearts for victims. And the second part is another three hours, and that's geared towards
Church leaders, elders, anybody in your church who would be doing care. And so how I envision it is that it can either be done in Sunday school, you could break it up because it's in different lessons. It could be done in a small group, it could be done as a Saturday event. It's on demand. The content is there. And the desire is so that we can see the suffering people in our midst, that we can identify them, and then we can identify the right pathways of care. How do we help an oppressor? What does a victim need? What are those, how do we set up a team?
Alex Kocher (46:13.37)
Uh-huh.
Darby Strickland (46:33.369)
approach in the church to really care for the people involved in this situation and yeah i think i like it because it plugs into a church's regular rhythms how they want to use it but it forces in a good way with case studies and questions people in the church to begin to have conversations about some of these uncomfortable places so the leadership you begin to identify how are we thinking about this what's our definition of abuse what would be our team's response what structures do we already have
Brenda Payne (46:45.54)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (47:01.673)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (47:03.299)
place that would bless people and helpers. Yeah, and then as everyday people in the pew, when I'm seeing this, how do I move towards one? How do I help her see what's happening is serious, that it is desecrating the image of God in her, that it is causing her harm.
and and that the Lord sees and cares for her. So I like that it has a two-component part. but yeah just because the women that I work with when their church comes around them and has a faithful response, they're in counseling about 70% less.
Brenda Payne (47:36.41)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (47:36.457)
Darby Strickland (47:36.687)
Right. The body just has such a beautiful redemptive way of coming alongside. If I've seen a marriage changed and an oppressor repent, it's because everyone has come around him and has held him accountable in a different way. and so yeah, so I just it's something I typically have taken on the road to do at various churches with various and just seen fruit from how churches have changed their culture based on his training, but I can't go everywhere. So putting it on demand and making it accessible, I'm hoping can help.
Brenda Payne (47:40.442)
Mmm.
Brenda Payne (47:48.472)
Hmm.
Darby Strickland (48:06.631)
churches have conversations. help them fill in their imaginations, right? Yeah, give them an imagination for what's behind some of the questions and stories they're hearing from women.
Brenda Payne (48:09.869)
great.
Alex Kocher (48:12.465)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (48:18.395)
I love that there's this whole church component to it, Darby. I really appreciate that because as we're talking about churches becoming a place where abusers hide, it just strikes me that if a church is putting this curriculum out for an entire community to see, it's gonna be much harder for an abuser to hide in that environment. And so that's just genius and I really appreciate that.
Brenda Payne (48:35.565)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (48:41.201)
Well what would you say to the woman who's listening, who's experienced abuse or trauma or or even the trauma and disappointment of the church's response to her? What what do you want her to know?
Darby Strickland (48:54.287)
Yeah, I think when God's people are not faithful, He is. Right. I even think like as a counselor, as a people helper, when I have failed my counselies early on when I didn't understand it was abuse, I had to take great comfort and the Lord pursued them and his care for them was far greater. and so yeah, if you're suffering abuse and you don't have anybody who's an earthly comfort, ask the Lord to be your comfort, but also say, Lord, bring me people who know how to help me. just keep seeking. oftentimes
Alex Kocher (48:57.961)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (49:07.011)
You
Brenda Payne (49:10.531)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (49:20.327)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (49:24.211)
you'll have a lot of non-helpful responses, but I think keep asking the Lord to bring people who are educated, who are trained, and he does not fail. He is committed to rescue. And I think that is just, you know, studying the word oppression when I wrote the first book, every time oppression is mentioned in scripture, the Lord's rescue is mentioned as well. And not because his people deserved it. Like we think of the Israelites, you know, they were crying out and they were just complaining.
Alex Kocher (49:45.043)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (49:48.633)
You
Darby Strickland (49:52.107)
out under their oppression they they weren't even asking the Lord for help and like scripture says he saw them and his heart was moved you know and he came to help. So yeah, just the the Lord is on the move on your behalf, even when you cannot see it or imagine it.
Brenda Payne (49:58.394)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (49:58.558)
Mm, mm.
Alex Kocher (50:07.175)
Mm. Mm.
Brenda Payne (50:07.385)
That's a good word, Darby. Darby, thank you so much. I think we've covered your training, the refuge, on demand. We've talked about some of your books, but if somebody would like to follow you, learn more about your work, follow the works that are coming up, tell us where they can go.
Darby Strickland (50:23.419)
Yeah, you can go to Darby Strickland.com and I tend to just have a gallery there of everything that I'm working on or CCEF.org. They would house other pieces of works that I do. So in either one of those two places, you'll find me and the things that I've been working on lately. I'm excited about what's coming up this fall. So Yeah, yeah. I am. Yes.
Brenda Payne (50:41.687)
That's great. I know you're also going to be talking at PeaceWorks Live.
with Chris Moles and we're going to be having him on as well. And so we're really excited. And I know that's just, in fact, Alex and I were just talking about how can we get to that conference? What is it? How can we get there? lot doing it online is fine, but especially being with the folks that are going to be there, you and Chris and others that we love so much is just, I know it's going to be a fantastic conference, but I want our listeners really to definitely go find you because you are still so active in writing and producing materials and being such a,
Alex Kocher (50:53.32)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (50:53.937)
Yeah, yeah, in September, yeah.
Brenda Payne (51:13.385)
a strong voice in this space for not only women who are victims, but people helpers who are women and then just to show us how to interact with the church in a way that's both winsome and wise. Because I really, when I think of you, I think those are two words, like you're winsome and you're wise. And I think that's why the Lord has just given you the platform He's given you. So thank you, Darby. You are a gift to us and to our listeners and to the church. And we appreciate you. And we're so glad that you joined us today.
Darby Strickland (51:28.377)
Mm.
Darby Strickland (51:34.277)
Thank you guys.
Alex Kocher (51:35.603)
Mm-hmm.
Darby Strickland (51:40.035)
Thank you for all you guys do. Thank you.