S14 Ep. 3 / Is My Church Actually Safe?
Alex Kocher (00:02.562)
Well, we're back today and we're excited. This has been a fun podcast season for us because we get to introduce people who we've long admired, who we've long followed and learned from to our listeners. And today we are excited to introduce Dr. Chris Moles, who's an ordained minister and biblical counselor. And Chris is the author of two books, The Heart of Domestic Abuse, Gospel Solutions for Men Who Use Control and Violence in the Home, and The Path of Peace, which is a ninety day journey.
From control to Christ-like love. And Chris is also the founder of Peace Works, which is a ministry and training platform that helps educate church leaders and families on domestic abuse prevention and intervention. And just personally, I'm glad you're here, Chris, because knowing that you're coming on the podcast, I was reflecting on the first time I met you, which I don't, I can't pin down how long ago it was. It was a minimum of 10 years ago.
And I was in my first abuse case and I was completely over my head. And I had a zillion questions and no I knew no one to talk to. And I went to a biblical counseling conference and you were there. And I don't know if you remember this, but after every one of the breakout sessions, after I heard you, I would find you. I would ask you my next three questions.
I'm not gonna say I was stalking you, but I think it could be said that I was stalking you. And I think at one point I was made aware of that when you turned to me and you said, it's you, the blonde from Alabama, who keeps following me around. And I'm gonna have to call my wife and tell her if we're gonna keep meeting like this.
Chris (01:28.348)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (01:29.15)
hahahahah
Brenda Payne (01:39.486)
hahahahah
Alex Kocher (01:49.742)
So I was grateful for you from that day. You really were the first person that I heard bring a biblical lens to domestic abuse and who not only had the theoretical and philosophical understanding of what scripture said, but the practical knowledge, which I was desperately lacking at that time. So thank you for not being afraid to come on today.
Chris (02:11.937)
not afraid at all. In fact, I I remember those days well. I had not been engaged in public ministry in this regard for for very long, but had been drawing a lot on my practical experience in the courts and just doing the hard work, boots on the ground here in West Virginia. So yeah, absolutely thankful for those days and any days thereafter I still have. The fact that I think I was telling you ladies before we started, the fact that I've been engaged
Brenda Payne (02:12.315)
Hehehehehe
Alex Kocher (02:27.009)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (02:35.705)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (02:40.905)
in this work for twenty years and have been publicly doing this work since around two thousand ten, two thousand eleven is remarkable to me. And the Lord's just sustained us and thankful for every day I get to support the vulnerable and confront the the harmful.
Alex Kocher (02:58.754)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (02:59.197)
Yeah, well, we're so grateful for you. And my personal story is probably about the same timeline as Alex's, but we have the privilege of having gone to the same seminary as you did your master's degree. And I remember getting there and just being a little starstruck with you because your thesis had turned into a book. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. But particularly, you know, I feel like abuse really coming into the church and into our counseling circles.
Chris (03:16.379)
Yeah, that's yeah.
Brenda Payne (03:26.255)
I don't know if it came late. It feels like it came late for me and just my understanding of it. But was so thankful not only to have somebody who understood abuse, but somebody who was also holding out hope for perpetrators. Because I think at that point, that wasn't even really being discussed much in biblical circles or Christian circles or churches. So you mentioned a little bit about your start, but Alex and I know a little bit more about your story, about what your background is, what you were doing, what led to your thesis, what led you deeply into this work. So we'd love for you to share that with our listeners.
Alex Kocher (03:37.428)
Mm.
Chris (03:55.876)
Yeah, happy to. I I come from a small place, small town in West Virginia, and that's where I'm from. I was born or raised in this area. The where I'm sitting, the house I grew up in is just right here behind me. the the Moles family farm is where we live now. And when we moved back home, like a lot of ministers, I was in full time vocational ministry, which meant I also needed another job. Most people are bivocational. And so
Alex Kocher (04:10.381)
Mm.
Chris (04:25.695)
by God's grace, I stumbled, or depending on your theological perspective, I was placed by his providence into criminal corrections. not really something I ever dreamed of doing. I I have a little bit too much, I think, Anabaptist theology to work for the state, but I was desperate for money and the Lord provided. So I was an educator for 20 years in the
Alex Kocher (04:44.585)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (04:52.123)
criminal justice system and probation and parole and conditions of bonds and things like that. And one of the things I taught for 17 years was domestic abuse prevention, working with batterers is what the terminology was back then. I think they recently changed the name around here, but batter intervention programming, I was one of a handful of trained facilitators in the entire state.
Alex Kocher (05:06.893)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (05:19.351)
And the the Lord allowed me to learn in that environment. So in 2008, I believe, when I I started seminary, I was in the very first class at that seminary. I had had a couple of years under my belt of working with perpetrators, hundreds of case hours at that point. And they allowed me to write all my papers on domestic violence. And the biblical counseling movement in particular had very little resources on the topic at all.
Brenda Payne (05:44.092)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (05:45.067)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (05:46.896)
And so it was again providential. Hey, write more on this. Or I'd have a professor say, Hey, do you think you could adjust this? Or we'd like to publish this. And it just led to one thing after another until the next thing I know, but with the time by the time that Alex met me, I was generally speaking, an expert in our world, just by default, having had so much connectivity to the problem and in particular to men. So
Brenda Payne (06:09.521)
Hmm. Hmm.
Alex Kocher (06:10.337)
Mm.
Chris (06:16.537)
just a huge blessing. My story doesn't have abuse in its past as far as my immediate family. I have learned some other family history, but the Moles family, just tremendous people and my mom and dad amazing. And so this was not something I was shaped by. I don't have significant childhood trauma. I just needed some cash for my family. And then the next thing I know, the Lord used that to just
Alex Kocher (06:39.262)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (06:43.343)
changed my entire life. I I really, ladies, can't imagine doing anything other than the work that I've been able to do for twenty years. And just for the sake of reference and then I'll I'll pass it back to you guys, I was at an event la two nights ago, a church event here locally and ran into a former client. I had the privilege of baptizing one of his children last year and
Just really great to catch up with him and was able to meet up with him last night and give him a copy of my newest book and just hear about what the Lord's doing in his life and how healthy his current relationship is, how healthy his relationship with his kids are. And just to see God glorified in that, even though it was messy and tricky and and awkward, even awkward reconnecting with him, it was really cool to to catch up and to see that the Lord had done something tremendous in his heart.
Alex Kocher (07:23.873)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (07:37.542)
Mm. What a blessing to be able to see the fruit of that. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (07:39.357)
encouraging.
Alex Kocher (07:43.87)
So Chris, we have talked with some other guests about abuse and we do want to kind of focus on the perpetrator. And and we are going to refer to the perpetrator here as men. I know I'll do it, so I want to go ahead and embed it just because the st statistics do bear out that way. but what do you think drives abusive men? And and then I would like for you to connect it to what should people helpers and church leaders understand about abusive men?
Chris (08:13.891)
Yeah. So I think the driving force, like the the root cause, generally speaking, is is a heart issue that we would call pride. It manifests itself in like entitlement, self-centeredness. there's really an aspect of worldview. I really like the way my friend Greg and friends Greg and Jeremy put it in their book When Home Hurts, that abusive men have a corrupt perception as well as corrupt behaviors. And so we tend to judge
abuse by the distinctive behaviors that are practiced. And I think the danger with that is it allows us to put our vision kind of on the wrong core issue. And this is what was happening in biblical counseling when I began to write on this. As you ladies know, some of the literature was a addressing anger problems, but that was insignificant or insufficient because if we address anger and anger cues, we run the risk of creating respectable abusers or polite abusers. sometimes we were blaming
Co-occurring issues like substances or stress or silly victim blaming things like lack of sexual activity or thing, just weird things were being blamed because we for some reason didn't have the imagination to see how sinful sin can be. And when someone becomes so intrinsic and they replace God on the throne of their heart, which is again
Alex Kocher (09:23.969)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (09:28.673)
Yeah.
Chris (09:38.256)
Biblical Counseling one one, when their idolatry is so deepened that they see themselves as more important than their wife's safety or their family's sanity or God's glory, abuse is a natural byproduct of somebody who has power, advantage, position, authority, who values their own comfort or their own importance more than their safety and sanity of their family.
Alex Kocher (10:01.098)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (10:01.245)
I just want follow up with the question because I think our experiences that in the church, think typically when people think about abuse, they think about physical abuse. But what we find is in the church, typically abuse doesn't manifest itself as physical. And so what type of abuse have you found that is most common among evangelical, conservative, Christian circles? And why do you think that is?
Chris (10:27.727)
That's a it's a great question to lean into, Brenda, because there are some some folks in our tribes that are actually wanting to eliminate certain categories of abuse, claiming that it's subjective or it's relies too much on the victim experience, which I I find incredibly troubling. I mean, how do we how do we know anything if we're unwilling to listen to what someone has experienced and have the imagination again to to contemplate it? So I think maybe a a more helpful
dynamic and again you guys feel free to speak into it. I see abuse as the misuse of power manifested in selfishly motivated patterns of behavior in order to exercise or maintain control over one's partner. So abuse is really this coercively controlling system. And when we talk about categories or tactics, normally what we're doing is we're describing the the means
By which the abuse takes place or the way in which the abuse is experienced. Let me frame that. So when I say physical abuse, we know exactly what I'm talking about. We can we can subplot it, we can put little bullet points about strangulation, restraint, pushing, shoving, spitting, pulling hair. We know what physicality is. When I say sexual abuse, I'm not creating a second category.
Right. I'm still within the category of abuse. I'm just helping my audience qualify and understand that the way in which this person we're working with was coercively controlled, or the way in which the perpetrator we're confronting was controlling their partner involved sexual aspects, coercion, in the bedroom, rapacious behavior. And I think that I think it kind of
Alex Kocher (11:52.939)
Right.
Alex Kocher (12:12.778)
Mm. Mm.
Chris (12:19.567)
Gives us then the building blocks for understanding terms like emotional abuse or spiritual abuse. Those being the two categories that are somewhat being dismissed in the church today, as to say, well, how can you abuse someone spiritually? Easily. You're using your power to coercive control another person by means of threatening them with hell, using the Bible to justify your evil or wicked behavior, making theological claims that are going to
Alex Kocher (12:29.802)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (12:33.287)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Chris (12:46.213)
persuade them and coerce them into certain activities. it ties in directly with sexual coercion with the way First Corinthians chapter seven is often used. And then emotional abuse, threatening, threatening homicide creates fear. threatening suicide draws on someone's love. Threats and coercion routinely pull on the emotions. So I wouldn't say they're separate categories. I would say they are descriptors of this evil which is abuse.
Brenda Payne (13:12.401)
Hmm.
Chris (13:16.107)
And you had Darby Strickland, I believe, on who would use the term, you know, domestic oppression or spiritual oppression. I think that helps us categorize what we're talking about. So yes, in the church, we rarely see public physical manifestations of abuse, but that does not mean that we don't see abuse. And I'll give you a a way to think about this. once I when I worked in corrections, you know, if I had a guy who had been arrested and he was there on a criminal charge.
Brenda Payne (13:22.077)
Yeah.
Chris (13:45.946)
it would not be uncommon for him to say, Well, I'm not doing that again. I'm not going to get physically violent. That stuff will get you thrown in jail. That doesn't mean his heart had changed, and it it did not mean that he was safe. It just meant he had made a decision that he would rather you know harm his partner in a different way if it meant he wouldn't go to jail, using the legal means of abuse, even though it was utterly sinful. So that's, I think, where the church has really been wrestling. And when I first came into the work,
Brenda Payne (13:57.255)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (13:57.596)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (14:05.289)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (14:09.426)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (14:14.125)
something the church wrestled with is we kind of conflated abuse as a criminal justice problem that, well, if somebody's abusive, we just report them to the police and they'll be arrested. But that's really naive because it assumes all abuse is criminal, which is just not true. And it even assumes that criminal forms of abuse are punished severely and and that's not true either. So really our our judge shouldn't be the code. What's codified, it should be what did what thus sayeth the Lord? What does God say about
Brenda Payne (14:29.266)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (14:34.515)
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (14:42.962)
Right.
Chris (14:44.485)
how we treat people made in his image and how we hold each other accountable with somebody who abuses their power, misuses it in order to control someone that they're supposed to love.
Alex Kocher (14:55.86)
I just wanna make sure we because you gave me a new way of s expressing this. I want to make sure I get it right, and then see if I make sure I'm clearing up any confusion that might arise. You're not saying the physical abuse has to occur in order for it to move into sexual or emotional or spiritual abuse. You're saying physical abuse is one expression and sexual, emotional, spiritual are other expressions of it.
Chris (15:24.185)
Yeah, it's a good way for us to categorize it so we quickly know what we're talking about and we know what the victim's experiencing and then what the perpetrator is doing. Now I will say, Alex, historically, like philosophically, we would say that physical violence is the threat of physical violence is always present in abusive relationships. And I I would say, my goodness, I can't even guesstimate how many times I've had this conversation, but I've worked countless cases.
Alex Kocher (15:26.623)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (15:43.638)
Yeah.
Chris (15:53.808)
Where there was one incident of physical violence in the past. And that became a significant anchor for the entire relationship. and I'm sure you've probably had some some guests on who deal with sexual abuse where the most significant encounter happened on the honeymoon in a Christian context. And then that became the anchor for the entire sexual relationship, which was coercive and rapacious.
Alex Kocher (16:01.45)
Right.
Brenda Payne (16:02.396)
Yep. Yep.
Alex Kocher (16:11.497)
Yes. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (16:11.618)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (16:18.131)
Yeah. And and I also seen in the church that sometimes it's not physical violence, but it's physical intimidation. Th just the just plant the thought that I could cross that line is all it takes. And then the emotional and spiritual abuse follow. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (16:18.234)
Yeah, yeah.
Brenda Payne (16:25.926)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (16:30.01)
Yep.
Chris (16:33.733)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the that's one of the reasons why we tie power and control to a lot of this. And we get a lot of pushback in the church. It's interesting to me, especially among complementarians, that we demand gender diversity until it comes to abuse. And then we almost get indignant that we try to have separate categories. but let's just face it, men are created bigger, faster, stronger. God made us that way. So to whom much is given, much is required.
Alex Kocher (16:39.008)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (16:53.016)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (16:54.706)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (16:58.507)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (17:02.163)
Mm.
Chris (17:02.231)
And then men have certain authority in society where our voices are louder. We are bigger. And certainly in the church, that occurs. So I I do get a little, a little hurt, a little upset with the church that's like, hey, you know, we've got to have strict, hard lines on gender, except for abuse. And then we've got to recognize that women are just as bad. I'm like, yeah, women sin in unique ways, guys. I'm not disagreeing. But if I participated in some of these behaviors, my wife would be terrified.
Brenda Payne (17:02.31)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (17:10.929)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (17:22.886)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (17:24.371)
Mm.
Chris (17:31.961)
And if she participated in some of them, I would be annoyed. They would probably both be sinful, but they would not be anywhere near the same significance.
Alex Kocher (17:40.475)
Mm, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (17:40.709)
Hmm, that's a great point.
Well, we've been talking about the kind of the categories of abuse, but I'd like to talk a little bit about some different categories of the abuser. And we have abusive men and we have what I want to say is like abusive behaviors. And one of the things that I have found challenging at times is just how do you or maybe how do you respond or should you or could you respond differently to a man who is just entitled, proud, you know, controlling versus let's say a man who's living out of trauma.
or has developed poor patterns of relating or damaging destructive patterns because of his family of origin. Addiction, somebody who's caught in addiction, mental illness diagnoses, severe mental illness, or even for me, it's been somewhat confusing sometimes as well as I have dealt with wives who we are looking at the husbands wondering if there's a neurodivergency here.
Alex Kocher (18:38.762)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (18:38.786)
So yeah, maybe if you could tease that out a little bit because that gets that that just gets more complicating. We've got all these categories of abuse, but then not every man is the same and not every story is the same or even necessarily every motivation for those behaviors is the same.
Chris (18:52.399)
So I often say if you've seen one case of abuse, you've seen one case of abuse. There are so many similarities. It feels like we should be able to have a textbook formulatic response. And honestly, let's be honest, the listeners, if you're in the evangelical community or in the biblical counseling community, I think that's part of the rub, is there's a real desire. Well, here's the problem. We need a solution. And my feedback is well, the the solution will not meet the needs of the problem.
Alex Kocher (19:02.355)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (19:14.42)
Right.
Chris (19:21.017)
Because every problem has unique comp components to it, especially in the area of abuse, right? It's like the had a guy wag his finger in my in my face one time and he said, If I believed you, you know, every time I left my dirty socks on the floor, I'd be abusive. And I said, I didn't say that. Unless, of course, you've used laundry in the past the past to coercively control your spouse. Right. It really is dependent.
Brenda Payne (19:25.796)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (19:25.949)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (19:42.204)
Hehehehehe
Alex Kocher (19:42.793)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (19:47.918)
Upon the story and what you're learning and the history and the tactics that are being utilized. So we often use the phrase contributive, not causative, Brenda. So my buddy Greg Wilson and I will teach on this quite a bit. There are a lot of contributing factors, but I draw a pretty hard line to say there is at the time of this recording no pathological cause for domestic abuse.
Brenda Payne (19:51.772)
Cheers.
Brenda Payne (19:58.321)
Mm.
Chris (20:15.987)
If we find one, then then let me know. But substances, for instance, change your judgment, not your values. So I I used to have this conversation with guys quite a bit in corrections. How many drinks before you call your wife, whatever that name is? And they would start calculating, trying to figure it out. And I would say, How many before you'd punch your mama? I would never do that. Exactly, because substances don't change your values, changes your judgment.
Brenda Payne (20:25.34)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (20:33.611)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Brenda Payne (20:43.868)
Mmm, it's so good.
Chris (20:44.911)
lowers your ambitions. And I think we can extrapolate that to all kinds of other areas that you were bringing up. Yes, men who are criminally charged with abuse, which is actually much harder to do than you think. All right. But men who are actually criminally charged and sentenced to programs like the one I used to lead have much higher ACES scores than the population in general. Now that doesn't mean that ACES is determinive or
Brenda Payne (20:58.48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (20:58.951)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (21:09.941)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Chris (21:13.539)
It's some kind of because I know that gets thrown out a lot. It's not diagnostic. It's simply it letting us know that these guys who are getting caught have been and have been participating in abuse of their partners for a long time or multiple partners have past trauma. We cannot deny that it's contributive, but it's not causative because there's plenty of traumatized people that don't abuse.
Brenda Payne (21:38.522)
Yeah. Can you tell our listeners what the ACES is?
Chris (21:41.178)
Yeah, so ACES is just a a 10 question quiz for ad adverse childhood experiences. some people really are afraid of it as if it's some kind of diagnostic tool. It's not. It's just it really is as simple as 10 questions. all we would use it for is for that national study or comparison to see that a lot of our guys who were criminally charged with abuse had higher scores. They probably
This is anecdotal because it's not part of the quiz. They probably had generational trauma around here. There was probably a long history of what I would call kind of would be sociological poverty and desperation, which is not uncommon in West Virginia. I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just part of the cultural dynamic here when it comes to criminality. And so I would say that generational trauma.
Brenda Payne (22:24.156)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (22:29.754)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (22:34.981)
feeds those well-worn paths, those well-lit paths that make it easy to do the same thing that Papa did, the same thing that daddy did. or even I want to avoid and not be like my father, I'll just abuse in different ways, not like my dad. And so I think that's what we saw with adverse childhood experiences is that trauma does contribute, but it doesn't cause. And neurodivergence would be another piece. Greg is doing some great, great work on this
Brenda Payne (22:35.29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (22:47.967)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (22:52.55)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (23:04.375)
in regards to autism spectrum disorders and folks who are just emotionally a little stunted in some ways. and that it that does make it tricky. So I will tell you, Brenda, every group I work with, let's say let's say I've got a men of peace group meeting tonight, which I don't, but let's say I do, and they've been participating in forms of abuse for a long time, I would say they are generally speaking going to be emotionally immature.
Alex Kocher (23:05.875)
Okay.
How good.
Brenda Payne (23:12.134)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (23:33.126)
Yeah.
Chris (23:33.37)
I don't think their immaturity produced the abuse. I think the abuse allowed them to stay in that immaturity because they haven't had to build the skills to be relationally competent. But what happens is that line gets a little fuzzy in a clinical setting because some of that is spectrum issues, right? Some of that is actually maturity issues. And so I I shy away from diagnostics.
Brenda Payne (23:37.798)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (23:38.629)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Brenda Payne (23:56.912)
Yeah.
Chris (24:02.627)
I want that to be clinically diagnosed and then we can deal with it. But most of the guys on the spectrum absolutely good fits for the class. they they can make the changes that are necessary. Conversations might have to be a little bit different or a little bit spelled out differently. but absolutely men can be safe in all those categories, mental illness, neurodivergence, people who are in addiction recovery, all of those folks can be safe.
Brenda Payne (24:04.677)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (24:15.707)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (24:20.047)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (24:23.951)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (24:26.844)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (24:32.163)
And I think it is somewhat of a dilemma when we start saying, Well, this causes or or that causes. No, they all contribute, but they can all be addressed as well.
Brenda Payne (24:32.251)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (24:39.333)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (24:42.206)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (24:42.253)
Yeah, that's great. That's that just gives this is so helpful. It really is. It gives a lot of hope.
Chris (24:47.301)
Well, real hope, and I do want to warn your listeners, having worked with victims as long as I have, I understand, like it would be it would be a little bit freeing, ladies, if you're listening, if you're a survivor, it would be really freeing and hopeful to say, Well, my husband made these choices because he couldn't help it, because he had X, Y, and Z. but I do think you need to know there's no there's no pathology as of today.
Alex Kocher (25:07.218)
Mm.
Chris (25:15.951)
That causes someone to make those choices. They made those choices because they were choices to be made. And they chose their comfort, their personal preference over your safety. And that's har it's hard to hear and it hurts to hear. But there's also more hope to Brenda's point because that's exactly why Jesus died was to save people from their sinful hearts. And I I think if we can actually get to that point, it hurts that they chose to harm us in that way.
Brenda Payne (25:16.165)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (25:20.837)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (25:27.93)
Yeah.
Chris (25:44.08)
But it actually gives us real hope as opposed to are they on the right cocktail of medication? Have they gone to the right therapeutic remedies? Are we treating all 50 things? Well, even if we treat all 50 things and we don't address the heart, we're actually going to be continue to be susceptible to abuse because abuse is a matter of time.
Brenda Payne (25:50.661)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (26:01.465)
Yeah, that was so good. Thank you, Chris.
Alex Kocher (26:02.992)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you. So the next question moves us into what is often the most difficult part, I think, for people helpers and women to navigate, which is how do you counsel women and their people helpers to navigate separation and divorce, particularly if the church is not trained, which is what we find often.
Brenda Payne (26:07.949)
you
Chris (26:27.609)
Yeah, I I would say in a perfect world the church would be educated. and we have seen that some. I I'll tell you I'll answer the question the way I want to so I can then say. but I could tell you that when we work with elder boards and leadership teams that are genuinely curious, they really do want to protect people and not protect positions.
Alex Kocher (26:39.676)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (26:40.264)
Hehehehehe
Chris (26:56.111)
They come up with really good ideas. Here's what I normally tell them, Alex. I don't want to change your theology. I'm a pastor. I'm not your pastor. a lot of good people disagree. and a lot of good people find their disagreements biblically. There's ways to get there, whether you are what they call a a yes, yes, a yes no, or a no no, right? If you are a permanence of marriage person.
Alex Kocher (26:59.102)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (27:20.158)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (27:20.757)
Hehehehehe
Chris (27:25.091)
Or you're a two-exception person, or maybe you're willy-nilly. A lot of people get there biblically, and it's not my job to alter your theology, but it is my job to challenge you with the question: have you thought through as a board, as a team, as a church, what it looks like to protect victims and hold offenders accountable from our unique theological position? And that is where when elder boards do that.
Brenda Payne (27:35.259)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (27:51.302)
Mm-hmm, great way to say it. Mm-hmm.
Chris (27:55.398)
We see tremendous movement, tremendous creativity. When they don't do that, it's usually a sign that they care more about preserving their theological position than they do about the people that they're shepherding. And it just just to be blunt, I'll say it this way when I work with permanence churches, and I do work with a lot of permanence churches, I will tell them I'm a two exception guy. I actually lean into a lot of other avenues. I think abandonment is far greater than desertion.
Alex Kocher (28:05.578)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (28:23.567)
Especially since neglect has such a key component in the Old Testament and how Paul uses that language in First Corinthians chapter seven. So I've got a lot more tools in the tool belt when it comes to grounds for separation and divorce. My permanence friends don't. I don't tell my permanence friends to stop being permanents, but I do tell them you have a greater burden in protecting victims because you have less tools in the tool belt. So rather than doubling down.
Alex Kocher (28:23.816)
Right.
Brenda Payne (28:23.941)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (28:34.267)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (28:44.324)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (28:51.289)
And having just a knee-jerk reaction, you got to do harder work. And when they do, they do great things. So I guess I say all that to say, because I think it helps soften the blow a little bit. Pastor Chris has a position, but it might not be your church's position. And I do think your church needs to wrestle with the concept of abuse, what abuse does to marriage and people's safety and sanity, and then how the church can respond wisely.
Alex Kocher (28:57.96)
Wow.
Brenda Payne (29:02.843)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (29:06.405)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (29:17.199)
So I'm a two-exception guy personally. I think separation is a healthy response to abuse, especially when people are unsafe. I want them to be safe before someone ends up injured or dead. and I actually believe that divorce is a response to a broken covenant, not the act of breaking the covenant. And so I'm really not a big fan of divorce, but I also don't get upset when it happens. Divorce is a gift from God.
Brenda Payne (29:17.455)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (29:36.638)
Yeah.
Chris (29:47.148)
to protect people from covenant breakers. And I mean we can delve into that a little bit more if we need to theologically, but I think that's the bottom line. Sometimes our churches are afraid of divorce. They see it as breaking the covenant. And from my perspective, divorce is what happens when the covenant's broken. That's one of the possible consequences.
Alex Kocher (29:49.886)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (29:58.963)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (30:05.765)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (30:06.58)
So Chris, I I have to say this 'cause my husband w listen one day and I gotta give him his prompts. I think you're the only other person I've heard say what my husband said years ago when I was wrestling with this and what was my personal position and
Chris (30:11.29)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (30:23.922)
And that is the idea. He l he looked at me and he said, I feel like we've now I'm gonna get it wrong when I say it. We've made, we've made man for marriage instead of marriage for man.
And I heard you give that argument years later and I was like, look at my husband just jumping in, like, you know, I'm just I'm just bogged down in all this study and I'm trying to exige these words and he just comes at it with this fresh mind and and just basically is just kind of, I think really looking at from a really gospel perspective of what was Jesus trying to do here and what was he saying to these people and he comes to this conclusion, it made so much sense, but I have to admit it took until you said it too to
Brenda Payne (30:43.963)
Hehehehehe
Chris (31:07.067)
Well my apologies to your husband. I have I have said for many years that that the institution of marriage in the evangelical church is the new Sabbath. And and I think we are so concerned with protecting the Sabbath that we have made rules that make it unenjoyable. I I will make a recommendation, it just happens to be setting right here. Look how little this book is. Little little book, but
Brenda Payne (31:07.661)
Hehehehehe
Alex Kocher (31:08.294)
Thought it was valid.
Alex Kocher (31:17.929)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (31:18.127)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (31:31.279)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (31:31.588)
I I have many copies in my office, yes.
Chris (31:34.596)
This little booklet by the Discovery Series, God's Protection of Women by Herb Vanderlund, is just a treasure. And I I have given out so many of these. You can still find them through the Discovery series. no cost, no obligation. You can get a box of them. And they are tremendous little resources. And he does not make arguments, he just exegetes scripture about how much God cares and loves loves women.
Brenda Payne (31:42.49)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (31:45.458)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (31:57.342)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (31:57.604)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (32:00.702)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (32:00.954)
Yeah, well one of the things that I think we all would say and I would love to know your thoughts on this I feel like the pastors who have actually been willing to sit and be involved and really listen to a woman's story and and gain the insight and understanding are the ones that are most open and curious because they're their theology doesn't work
Right? It's like, uh-oh, what do I do now? And I just, I wonder, pastors are busy.
You know, is takes it takes a long time. So maybe my question is a few fold. One is how important do you think women are to the work like training women in your church, people who will spend the time and then secondly, how can a pastor come to appreciate the complexities and to be challenged theologically if they're always kind of sitting in their ivory tower so to speak like they're looking at the scriptures and they're seeing it theologically but not practically. I know when I've been
Alex Kocher (32:32.393)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (32:59.722)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (33:02.118)
in different situations and I've been able to invite a pastor or church leader in and they actually begin to wrestle and I've had some pastors say some things to me that I was like, wait, that is crazy that you would say that because you're having to say that because you can't make this fit in your theology. Right? Like she can divorce him but she'll just have to say it's sin and you can just tell her to ask forgiveness for God on the other side and you know just like gymnastics. And so yeah, I'm just wondering like how do pastors
gain this awareness if they don't have the time or the ability, I think that's really my question, to sit with women and to hear the stories for themselves, because I think that is just such a game changer.
Alex Kocher (33:43.41)
Mm.
Chris (33:43.492)
Yeah, I I think boy. Well, here it goes. Tough spot, pastors. If you're listening, preacher, and you don't have time to listen to people, then it's probably time to get some help or plant another church or I don't know what you gotta do, but i if you don't have time to listen to your people, you probably it's probably time for a change. I had a pastor years ago,
Alex Kocher (34:09.801)
Mm.
Chris (34:13.231)
We got into a little bit of an argument because he said he he wouldn't counsel his people because he didn't think a pastor should know what was going on in his people's life, it would affect the way he preaches. And I said it'll absolutely affect the way you preach. Like, how do you know what to preach if you're not talking to your people? it was a it was a crazy conversation. But I I do think that if a pastor is too busy ministering the word only publicly or to himself.
Alex Kocher (34:23.721)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (34:24.794)
You
Chris (34:43.523)
I really think he's gonna miss out. So I'm sorry, preacher, if you're listening and you love to preach, I like to preach, but preaching is only part of the ministry of the word. And if you're not engaging with people, it's like an old Bible teacher of mine said in in college years ago, Cheryl Fawcett. She said, Kids, we don't just teach the Bible, we teach people the Bible. And if it's if your theology is not practical, then I challenge it.
Brenda Payne (35:04.418)
Mm-hmm, that's right.
Mm-hmm.
Chris (35:10.989)
I challenge it. It's being theological. Like it has to be practically lived out. And so boots on the ground are necessary. So after scolding our preachers for just a minute, let me back up. you can't be involved in every case, and you probably can't be involved at every step of every case. another friend of mine, his pastor said to a perpetrator one time we were working with, or my friend was working with, he said, You're thinking days and weeks, and I need you to think months and years.
Brenda Payne (35:20.09)
Hahahaha
Alex Kocher (35:21.277)
Mm, mm, mm.
Right. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (35:27.652)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (35:39.502)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (35:40.272)
Like these are long, drawn out processes. So you might not be able to walk the whole process, but you should be having conversations. I think it would be nice if you engage in cases occasionally. you can be a great resource for advocates in your church and counselors in your church who are working for working with victims. And you can read. I know you got time. I just held up one little book that's it's not even a chapter length that you could read. My book is not.
Brenda Payne (35:43.247)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (36:07.633)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (36:09.015)
I wrote it for crying out loud, so it's not that hard. You can read my my book. we have a podcast through Peace Works called Peace Interrupted. And it's a narrative-based podcast about coercive control and it tells Sarah's story. I would encourage pastors to listen to episode one, Sarah's story, and it'll give you in forty minutes, a pretty clear picture of what one victim
Brenda Payne (36:11.418)
Hehehehehe
Chris (36:35.579)
might experience. And then if you want to listen to subsequent episodes, we have interviews. But what's more important is just kind of having the imagination and the curiosity to ask questions. Is this even possible? rather than assuming somebody's not telling the truth or something's not right here or this can't happen in my church. as soon as those words roll out of your mouth your mouth, this can't happen in my church, I assure you it's happening in your church. Right? It probably happened before you finished that sentence.
Brenda Payne (36:38.093)
You
Alex Kocher (36:44.829)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (37:01.476)
you.
Brenda Payne (37:05.208)
Yeah, no, that's good. Well, that... Go ahead, Alex. Yeah, yeah, no, go.
Alex Kocher (37:06.985)
And Chris, I can I ask one follow-up question, Ren? W one of the things that I've loved and I I should have asked you this offline, but I loved the becoming a church that cares well for the abuse curriculum.
Chris (37:10.383)
Well yeah, go for it.
Alex Kocher (37:22.651)
And I loved it because it enabled me to take this curriculum to my church and say, here's what the deacons need to, here's the chapters the deacons need to do, here's the chapter the pastor needs to do, here's the chapter that our whole task force is gonna do, here's what our elders are gonna do. It just it just made so much sense to me. Is it still available?
Chris (37:43.887)
far as I know, I I
politically correct, maybe not. I my understanding, I'm not Southern Baptist, right? I just worked on the task force. my my understanding is it has been tremendously successful and widespread throughout the country, but there's a vocal minority that continues to try to edit it, change some key elements about it. So as far as I know it is, but I'm not I'm not sure. I will make a recommendation
Alex Kocher (37:56.68)
Right.
Alex Kocher (38:10.299)
Okay.
Chris (38:17.045)
you can, if you're really busy, you can speed us up on the videos. You can make it double time. Now, just for fun, I want you to do this if you get a chance. I want you to speed speed Brad Hambrick all the way up. And then I want you to slow Leslie Vernick all the way down. And I guarantee you that Leslie's still talking faster than Brad.
Brenda Payne (38:31.866)
Ha
Alex Kocher (38:36.13)
Ha ha ha.
Brenda Payne (38:36.186)
Hehehehehe
Alex Kocher (38:41.319)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (38:41.946)
That is hilarious. That's great.
Alex Kocher (38:47.695)
It was it was a great curriculum if b if people can, you know, still access it. But it's still the idea of
being able to put the right resources into hands and it doesn't have to be the whole church doing all the same resources, although I understand Darby's new resource will go, there is a component for the whole church, which I love. But having these specialized trainings of letting different groups that have different responsibilities when they're in the church understand different aspects of what their role might be in protecting victims, I think is a really great approach and one that people helpers might even want to replicate if that curriculum's not available.
Chris (39:05.723)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (39:24.911)
Yeah, and that that would be a good suggestion for a pastor. So Pastor, if you're listening, you're like, I am going to commit maybe the next five years just to learning, not not deep diving, but just to learning on this. Let me just encourage you each year to make part of your subsequent reading in one of the key team members. Learn about advocacy, learn about trauma-based counseling, learn about perpetrator intervention, right? Those type of
Alex Kocher (39:45.545)
Mm.
Chris (39:52.848)
Team members are going to help you at least understand where they're coming from and the specific roles and goals that they're moving forward. If you're going to start a team in your church, it'd be good for you to at least know what your team members are going through and what they're headed towards.
Alex Kocher (40:07.315)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (40:07.832)
Yeah, and I think that's really the key even is how do we keep our pastors from being overwhelmed? Well, can they begin to be educated and then build a team that can work together? Which I know Chris, that's what you are all about, educating and building teams and equipping people. Well, I know we're going to start winding down a little bit, but I don't want to leave our conversation without talking about repentance because I really rarely meet a wife who is not just so desiring to have her family healthy and strong.
and her children well cared for and her husband to be the man she always dreamed he would be. I think contrary to popular belief that women are just trying to get out of their marriages so often, the women that I deal with.
have put up with things for 10, 15, 20 years because they've been trying to save their marriage alone. And by the time they get to us, it's kind of the, you know, the final straw in a sense, but they are still so willing and open and desperate to see change. And so I guess, you know, the question is, is you have mentioned earlier on that there is hope that you talked to your guy last night who repented and was doing well, but do you actually, you know, it is repentance from a man who's been abusive
Alex Kocher (40:55.783)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (41:20.38)
for a long time, something that you see often and what kind of things do you look for when you are counseling a man and maybe when you are even talking to a woman who is, whose heart is so desperately wanting. That's what I see is a woman so often just wants to see, two weeks, know, two weeks after he started counseling, he said this nice thing or he did this nice thing he never does. And I'm just like, okay, it's been two weeks. You know.
Chris (41:47.356)
Yeah. Yeah. Give it two more, buddy. Yeah. You know, we do see acts of repentance. I think one of the questions I get asked is, you know, do people really change? And I generally respond in a few ways. One is, of course. but some people get worse and some people get better, right? do people change? And the answer is, yeah, but to what degree?
Alex Kocher (41:50.34)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (42:00.419)
Yeah.
Chris (42:15.887)
Some guys just get safer, but they're not really sanctified. And maybe that's okay. Maybe in your situation you'll tolerate that. And and that's not for me to say. I'm not married to the guy. I want to respect and honor you. We're always going to push towards sanctification, but sometimes we'll settle for safety. But really, when someone says, Will people change? Usually a survivor is saying, Will my husband change? Will this man that I love change? And and we don't know to what degree.
Alex Kocher (42:39.101)
Mm.
Chris (42:45.775)
He will or will not. We often tell folks we train that the risk and assessment is when you're working with a guy, you're working with somebody who's open. That's good. They're open to feedback, they're open to criticism, they're open to to training to be helped, or you're working with someone who's ambivalent. They're either reluctant or resistant. And I'll work with both of those. A reluctant guy can be invited in, a resistant guy can be addressed.
Or a hostile person. And I I recommend my guys not work with hostility. My tr my trainees, I'd rather them refer them out. if someone's going to treat you the same way they treat their spouse, try to overwhelm you in the process, it's probably a lot to ask for a church based, right? It needs to be somebody like me working with with hostile folks or law enforcement or the courts. but to the heart of the question, yeah, repentance occurs.
Does not mean that trust is rebuilt. Forgiveness can be granted, but that doesn't mean that everything's hunky dory. I think that's something we struggle with the church sometimes. They'll come to me and they'll say, churches will say, Well, you know, he's repentant. but we're not using a good rubric. We're not using, was it Second Corinthians seven? What what earnestness, what indignation, what sincerity, what zeal, what passion to make things right? Like,
Alex Kocher (43:52.713)
Mm.
Chris (44:11.663)
We're look we want to see visible change. We're not using efficients for when's a liar no longer a liar when he's a truther, when's a thief no longer a thief, when he's been generous for a a portion of time. And so the fruits of repentance will prove themselves over time. so if we're using that rubric, if we're actually looking for the fruits of repentance, genuine repentance, not just tears, not just crocodile tears or a little bit of contrition, then we're on the right path. It can't happen.
But that doesn't mean that trust is going to be rebuilt. Doesn't mean that relationships are going to be restored. Let me give you example. I worked with a fella. He made tremendous, tremendous strides. I mean, it was remarkable. and I remember talking to the judge. This was back in my criminal court days, and was telling the judge just how great he was doing. And the judge said, Wonderful. So he's safe. And I said, no, no, no, no, he's not safe. I was like, I said he's made improvement.
He started at a negative six, he's at a two. Like that's a lot of movement, but don't let him date your sister. That's exactly what I said. But I wouldn't let him date my sister. movement is not the same as repentance, and movement is not the same as rebuilding trust. And so even if you have genuine repentance, a desire to change, if you've climbed so far up the ladder, maybe this is for men that might be might be tagging along or listening or stumbled across this podcast, if you've climbed the ladder to the top rung.
Brenda Payne (45:15.001)
You
Alex Kocher (45:15.311)
Yeah. Hmm.
Brenda Payne (45:20.761)
Mmm.
Alex Kocher (45:24.336)
Mm.
Chris (45:38.064)
Just because you've come back down to the ground doesn't mean that she's ready to forgive and move on and restore a relationship. She might be willing to forgive you in her heart, but maybe she can't trust you ever with her hands and with her her her head and with her proximity ever again. Sometimes it's just hard to come back from that. So yeah, I think repentance happens. We do see it happen. We tell our trainees, we are looking for two responses.
Alex Kocher (45:48.957)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (46:06.839)
Either initial repentance, faith in Jesus that leads toward change, or obstinence, because we can work with either one. It's the fuzzy middle we can't work with. And and quite frankly, if if church leaders listening in, this is where churches get caught because we really want to offer grace after grace after grace, and we really are so desperate for people to change, we will live in the fuzzy middle for a long time.
Alex Kocher (46:11.208)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (46:17.741)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (46:24.944)
Right down.
Brenda Payne (46:25.389)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (46:31.726)
Mm.
Chris (46:32.047)
taking, you know, token changes rather than holding people to real strict accountability. And and we either want you to fish or cut bait. Like all in for Jesus, change, transformation, repentance, or just acknowledge that you don't know Jesus from a hole in the head and let us help your wife find safety and sanity.
Alex Kocher (46:36.968)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (46:49.22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Chris, I feel like we could ask you twenty more questions and just keep going and going. We are gonna wrap up. But before we do, we do want you to tell us about Peace Works and just what resources are are there for churches, for leaders, for families, and for men seeking change.
Brenda Payne (46:49.505)
Yeah, that's good. Very good.
Brenda Payne (46:55.865)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (47:06.713)
Yeah. Yeah. Just a privilege to lead Peace Works. Peaceworks is an education and intervention ministry primarily. So our our two focuses are to educate the church. We do that through conferences and trainings, membership communities, all things you can find at Chris Moles dot org. On the intervention side is an arm we call Men of Peace. Men of Peace has an entire ecosystem that continues to grow.
It includes our Path to Peace Devotional, our Men of Peace self-paced curriculum, our Men of Peace groups, soon to be Men of Peace Plus membership community, and Men of Peace Intensives coming next year. So all of that designed to directly address the hearts of men through kind of this long standing operational procedure that I've used and developed and written down. I've got my leader's guide right here that's coming out next year.
Alex Kocher (47:45.46)
good.
Chris (48:01.248)
to help people lead men of peace groups. So men of peace is the key ministry I think for us, trying to reduce violence against women by addressing the hearts of men.
Brenda Payne (48:01.4)
So.
Brenda Payne (48:13.635)
That's awesome.
Alex Kocher (48:13.808)
And then last thing your Peace Works Live conference, what do you do there?
Chris (48:16.923)
my goodness, Peace Works Live's the best friend. So Peaceworks Live 2026 is happening September 24th through 26. You can learn about it at chrismoles.org. We have multiple tracks. Our dream has always been to train each of our team members. We like to form shepherding teams when holding men accountable. So this year we have Brad Hambrick leading shepherding in crisis. It's an entire track on pastoring people through.
Alex Kocher (48:20.37)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (48:44.793)
The process of domestic abuse. Beth Broom is doing our Christian Trauma Healing Network level one training for our counselors to be trauma trained. we love for our counselors to have trauma-informed, biblically backed, gospel-centered training and working with victims. Darby Strickland, she's just a wonderful friend and partner, and she's doing an entire track on tending to victims. Melissa Affolter, if you have not heard that name, get ready. Melissa is.
The best kept secret in our world. And she has created something called Restoried. It is narrative-based biblical care support groups for post-trauma survivors. So victims and survivors who've come out of trauma. she helps you redevelop your story, literally restory the narrative. And she's going to be doing the first ever training track on how to start those groups. I think I've mentioned everybody, and then Greg and I will be doing Men of Peace.
Our introduction track and our advanced track. We have a whole slew of partners now that are starting groups around the country for men who are violent and controlling and want the gospel to effectively address it. So it's going to be a great time. Adam Westlake will be back. Adam from the Worship Initiative is our worship leader. He's a biblical counselor, tremendous friend, and absolutely a great worship leader. We have a night of lament every year where we pray for each other and for victims of domestic violence.
And lastly, it's a great place to network. If you have not met people who love the Lord and love victims and survivors, this is your tribe. If you haven't met them all yet, they're all going to be there. So come to West Virginia, meet them live, enjoy our hospitality. and I'd love to have you come see my home, see where I live, and enjoy West Virginia for a couple of days.
Alex Kocher (50:15.728)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (50:23.954)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (50:37.224)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (50:37.997)
Well, Alex and I have been actively talking about how we can get there. So don't be surprised if we show up and we're following you around again. That's right. That's right. They fly every day. That's right. Well, Chris, you are just a joy. You're a gift. We just care so deeply about you and your work.
Alex Kocher (50:41.242)
Yes. Mm-hmm. And we're following you around
Chris (50:42.797)
It a car or a p a car or a plane will work, ladies. Get the rent a car or hop a plane.
Brenda Payne (50:59.673)
and just thank God for you. So thank you for taking time out of your schedule and your work to be with us. And we just really, really want to tell our listeners like go find Chris Maul's, follow his work, go to his conferences if you want to be equipped, churches leaders, there's some great resources that you've given our listeners to be able to take to their churches and
Alex Kocher (51:09.222)
Mm, mm.
Brenda Payne (51:19.449)
winsome ways and present them. And that's one of the things I do appreciate so much about you. I think you do have a real winsomeness about you and that's very disarming, which is really beautiful. So thank you, brother. We're so happy to have had you.
Alex Kocher (51:26.866)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (51:31.303)
my pleasure. You can't you can't bully the bully. All you do is reinforce his worldview. So if we're gonna win people, if we're gonna convince people, it's gotta be the way of Jesus. And that's gentle. And so really thankful for you ladies. I love y'all too, and and really thankful to be a part of this little piece of the internet with you.
Alex Kocher (51:34.83)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (51:43.166)
Mm. Mm.