S14 Ep. 2 / Finding Peace When Your Child Doesn’t Change with Dawn Ward
Brenda Payne (00:03.77)
Well, welcome back to conversational counseling episode, or I should say, season 14. if you're a mother who is walking through the really hard, long, and sad journey of seeing your child self-destruct, or if you're walking with somebody else who is watching their child self-destruct, then today's episode is definitely going to be for you. we're honored to have with us our friend Dawn Ward. Dawn is not a stranger to conversational counseling, we've known her for
Quite a few years and been following her journey and her ministry. She's the author of From Guilt to Grace: Hope and Healing for Christian Moms of Addicted Children. And she's the founder of a really incredible online support group called Christian Moms of Addicted Children. And in our podcast today, Dawn is going to share her story, the hard lessons that she's learned, and the grace that she's found. Dawn, you and I met some years ago and began communicating and really our hearts connected over.
Over just the pain and the burden of having children that you know had problems with addiction and just all the heartache that that brought. And I think that, you know, not only did we share just all the uncertainty and the crisis and the pain, but we also shared this hope in Jesus and what Jesus not only what he could do for our children, but what he was and promised to do for us. And that's to create something beautiful out of the mess that we're in.
So we are just so happy to have you and we just want to welcome you to our c our conversation today.
Dawn Ward (01:38.978)
thanks so much, Brenda and Alex. I appreciate you having me back and being willing to let me share a little bit of my story with your listeners. I hope it will help.
Alex Kocher (01:47.206)
Mm, I know it will. Don, we wanted to just start off thinking about that mother and realizing that when addiction comes into a family, everyone seems to focus on the person who's struggling with the addiction. But what do people often miss about the suffering mother or suffering parent?
Dawn Ward (02:08.535)
That is such a good question. And I think as Christian moms in particular, we tend to feel as though loving means that we really don't even acknowledge what we're going through, that we're just laying our life down, that we're living sacrificially. And I know all moms love their kids and will do whatever they can for them. But I think the extra weight that goes with being a Christian is that it's it's easy to kind of read into the scriptures in such a way as that having
Any kind of feelings of being like thinking about ourselves, that we're not sleeping, that we're worried, that we're losing weight, that we're stressed out, almost feels selfish. And where in the world, you know, there is that message of self-care and all of that. And if we're not careful as Christians, we can read the word to be more like laying down our life and being willing to, you know, make those sacrifices. And sometimes that gets convoluted and it gets to the place where we don't realize.
Alex Kocher (02:48.987)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (02:49.335)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (02:54.168)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (03:08.409)
That's what we're doing is actually not only hurting ourselves, but it's e even hurting our relationship with our child because we're just giving up everything for them to try to save them. And in the process, what kind of an example are we actually being? Are we are we showing tr that we love the Lord and we trust Him? Or are we just in the middle of it trying to manipulate it and fix it at all costs? And that's where I was. I mean, that was, you know, my bottom was just really at that place of.
Alex Kocher (03:31.987)
Mm, mm.
Dawn Ward (03:38.399)
of feeling like if my kid wasn't healthy, happy and whole, that then I couldn't be healthy, happy and whole. And even not being able to give myself permission to even do the thing, the other things that God had for me and the other responsibilities that God had for me, just being paralyzed by what was going on in our life with him.
Alex Kocher (03:52.209)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (03:55.32)
Yeah.
I think that's such a good point. And I it's one thing I really appreciate about your message is that the primary focus isn't just about like how are you going to change your child, because we know we're not that powerful and we're not and we're not responsible for that. but your message is really about how God meets and changes us in the middle of our struggle. And in your book, you talk about surveying 700 Christian mothers of addicted children. And I wonder if that's one of the largest surveys that's been done. I've not seen a lot of surveys like this, so do more. and you ask and
Dawn Ward (04:06.771)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (04:22.891)
I know. Yes.
Brenda Payne (04:26.319)
You asked the question, what do you need to better equip to equip you to handle your child's addiction? And by a landslide, you said that the two top answers were number one, I want to learn how to live peacefully, even if my child never changes. And number two, I want to draw closer to the Lord and learn how to fight this battle spiritually. And Don having
Dawn Ward (04:46.785)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (04:49.535)
spoken with you, you know, for the last few years, I know that this isn't just a theme in your book, it's actually lessons you've learned personally. And so before we dive into some of the the themes that are important for mothers, tell us a little bit about your own story and background and what led you to minister to mothers of addicted children.
Dawn Ward (05:07.509)
It's not something I would have signed up for. And I still keep asking the Lord, am I the girl for the job? But
Alex Kocher (05:09.986)
Right. Mm. Mm.
Dawn Ward (05:12.811)
But I you know, I did grow up in an alcoholic home. And my uncles, my dad, all of them were heavy drinkers. Three of them out of the five were firemen and they just it was kind of part of what went with the territory. But as I was getting older, I noticed that my dad, I mean, by older I mean hey, a whole f whopping four years old. But I started to notice that my dad got mean when he drank, and whereas his brothers were laughing and the life of the party and all of that. And my dad drank a lot. When he wasn't working, he was drinking. So I lived in a
Even though he didn't hit me or anything because he was this very loud, boisterous man, it was and him he did get physical. My mother and him their altercations would get physical. I had a lot of fear and just a ton of fear. And I d so i I just naturally I think as the firstborn started to go into behaviors where if I was good and n and staying out of trouble and could keep the you know, my brother and sister, even eventually my brother and sister, he's seven years younger than me, but my sister's two years younger.
If we could just behave and stay out of trouble, then dad wouldn't drink and mom and dad wouldn't fight and the house would be peaceful. So even as a young girl, I knew that I was trying to get away from that fighting and that stress in the family. I wanted to do whatever it took to live like, you know, like everybody else and just have a normal, happy life. So that was a behavior that started in me even as a young child. When I carried it into my marriage,
Brenda Payne (06:35.929)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (06:42.791)
into our you know, I th I thought, well gosh, if I teach my kids not to drink, stay away from alcohol, we won't have any problems. Raise them in a Christian church, teach about the Lord, teach about Jesus, vet their friends, all those things, we you know, we will not run into this. Drugs weren't even on my radar. I mean I didn't have any exposure to drugs growing up. What I knew was alcohol. So I didn't even know how to look for drugs or test for drugs or anything when if when it did enter our family.
Brenda Payne (07:01.559)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (07:12.591)
But what I now look back on and realize is that I parented from a place of fear.
And a a need to control. I felt if I could control my environment, control my kids' lives, then these things, these bad things wouldn't happen. They wouldn't follow us into our family. And so that naturally, when when addiction did finally enter through, and actually it was my younger son who was the first one that got involved with drugs, my first feeling was paralyzing fear. Just paralyzing fear. All I remembered hearing was that when
Brenda Payne (07:27.555)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (07:45.529)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (07:47.954)
kids get into drugs they either end up in prison or dead and that's what I knew about drugs and so I wasn't even prepared for what went on in my brain when this hit our family and so naturally my my response was you know there's a fire put it out get this thing fixed and move on and of course that wasn't the way that's not the case when we're dealing with addiction but but even as a believer as a Christian
Brenda Payne (07:51.415)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (07:59.77)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (08:17.807)
I had been a Christian most of my life. I wasn't raised in a Christian home, but God did call me when I was very young to follow Him and serve Him. I didn't know how to prepare for what I didn't even expect to be something that we would deal with. And I had no idea what it was going to reveal in my heart. And so naturally, of course, the only thing I knew was hey, get him into a secular treatment program. Found the most expensive, fancy one in town, took out, you know, all the money out of savings that we had, whatever insurance.
Brenda Payne (08:30.307)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (08:47.827)
Would cover, and we had to pay the rest. And then I got thrown right into the world of, you know, families who have loved ones struggling with addiction. And generally that's following a 12-step model. And what that did to me was increase my fear. Once an addict, always an addict. a life to me of being in bondage to a program. That if you didn't work your program, then the option was to relapse and be.
Brenda Payne (09:08.355)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (09:17.647)
using drugs again and the cycle was going to continue. And I'm not negating whether people are what people are going to for help, but what I'm saying is that was the effect it had on me. Was it just again was, hey, do these steps, you know, whether you're the the person struggling with addiction or you're the parent, do these steps and everything will work out okay. And that wasn't fixing what was going on inside of me.
Alex Kocher (09:29.572)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (09:29.635)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (09:46.051)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dawn Ward (09:46.888)
And and that wasn't the you know, and that's where where my longing to understand what the Bible
said about addiction and life controlling behaviors became something where I it was like, Lord, this I can't reason this out with what I know about you and your character. But it had to be it was a very hard, painful journey for me to ask those hard questions and to live all of that out and to struggle and wrestle with my faith while I was still trying to save the life of my child. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (10:16.601)
Mm-hmm. And then later on in your story you talk about your second son and also your husband. Can you share a little bit about what went on there?
Dawn Ward (10:23.925)
Yeah, I tell ya, it just follows me around. So my actually my younger son really wanted help. He came and asked for help. And we were we did put him into that very expensive program, tapped out our finances, that was it. He was just young, just barely I think not even quite eighteen yet. And we really started to recognize that he needed to get away from his friends and he needed to be in a a Christian program. I wasn't going to be investing any more.
This is again my decision. I wasn't going to be investing any more of our money into these secular programs and their message. And so we at that point put him into a Christian program and he really ran with that. He the Lord just really moved in his life and just the people that were around him, he he gleaned and he he was like a sponge. And he wanted his life to change. And he he really recognized his need to quit trying to do things his way and to do things God's way.
And and so we think we've missed we've dodged a bullet. Like, you know, we hear all the horror stories out there and k kids who've been struggling with this for fifteen, twenty years and we're thinking, gosh, we kinda got a you know, got a we got out of jail free. I mean, this was really like only a a year or two of real hard and then it started to get better. And then my mid my older son was the next one. And what happened with him was he had a surgery that he we found out he had a congenital birth.
Brenda Payne (11:23.374)
Hm.
Brenda Payne (11:29.23)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (11:53.116)
Effect it was a stomach problem, and he had surgery. And at the time, they were prescribing prescription pain meds and saying they weren't addictive. And they had him on them for quite a bit of time, and then we noticed that when we were trying to get him off of them, he couldn't get off. Now, by now, he had already graduated from college and he was out working and he was living by you know out not under our roof. So we didn't realize how serious the problem really was until it became something that really took over his life. We're talking the
Brenda Payne (11:59.075)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (12:00.943)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (12:07.928)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (12:22.999)
Car accidents and the mental health breakdowns and arrests and things like that that were going on. And so that was going on. And really, kind of around the same time, my husband, who had had numerous back surgeries, also became addicted to the pain meds. And he was kind of hiding it from me, or I think because he was taking pain meds and hadn't it hadn't gone to street drugs, I didn't really again, like I said, this was so this was something that I was learning about. There's so much more.
Brenda Payne (12:25.208)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (12:38.134)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (12:38.724)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (12:52.669)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yep.
Dawn Ward (12:52.959)
awareness now we this all started for us 20 years ago 20 years ago like the difference between the conversations and the information that's available now is night and day i mean to everything was anonymous back then i remember women joining when the lord had me starting my group the lord the women were trying to join anonymously and they didn't have an anonymous button for them to join and now they do and and so it was one of those things and with my husband it also because he was disabled because of his
Alex Kocher (12:56.601)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (13:01.718)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (13:02.521)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (13:05.666)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (13:12.928)
Ha ha ha
Dawn Ward (13:22.799)
Back injuries, he ended up, we live in Las Vegas, he ended up becoming addicted to gambling as well. So there was just times when my focus was so much on helping my son that I didn't really even recognize what was going on with my husband. And so it became a situation where I looked back and I said, Lord, every man in my life of any kind of importance, whether it was grandparent, my brother, my husband, my sons, they've all struggled with addiction.
Brenda Payne (13:29.632)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (13:51.947)
Hm.
Dawn Ward (13:52.672)
Yes. So but my my husband, praise the Lord, is doing really well. He had a very deep personal encounter with Jesus and and it remarkably set him free. And I do talk about that in the book. And so there's, you know, we never know how the Lord's gonna work in someone's life when they actually surrender to him. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (13:55.234)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (13:57.144)
Yeah, that's heartbreaking.
Brenda Payne (14:14.344)
Mhm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing, Dawn. I mean, as I even I was reading your book, I was thinking it's just a lot. It's just grief upon grief upon grief upon grief. And I know that we have people listening, women listening, who are in such deep grief and we prayed even before we started recognizing that. And so I almost feel like when you just take a second and just breathe. You know. We're all safe in the moment.
Alex Kocher (14:14.787)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (14:21.421)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (14:35.381)
Yes Yes we are
Brenda Payne (14:39.376)
But, you know, that's just a I mean, just having dealt with one child and and that's it. I mean, that was enough to almost take me under for, you know, over a decade. So I can't even imagine with all of that swirling around
And and so really it's the I often like to say and other people have said it differently and probably better, but oftentimes your platform to preach or your greatest ministry grows out of the place where you've had the deepest wounds and the hardest trials because this is where Jesus has met you. And there's a real empathy that you can have to enter in with other people and also give them hope. yeah.
Dawn Ward (15:16.407)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (15:16.503)
Mm.
Yeah, don.
Dawn Ward (15:19.051)
I think one of the things I've had to really learn and now my son is going to be forty in November and so his most recent relapse and breakdown was about six months ago. And I've had to learn to parent differently in these different phases. And and so
Alex Kocher (15:34.457)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (15:37.251)
When you write a book, you want to be able to say, Hey, do A, B, and C, and everything's gonna, you know, work for you. But as we know with raising children, is that while our end goal is to raise them to, you know, love the Lord and be decent law-abiding citizens and hard workers and all the goals, each child is parented differently. I have a daughter who still lives at home that's on the autism spectrum. And so I have never experienced emptiness. I've always been that very engaged parent.
Brenda Payne (15:42.456)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (16:04.27)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (16:07.384)
And as a result of that, it's it's always this, Lord, show me how to step back and let them adult.
Because just because they have different needs does or they're at different places than what we would consider to be a normal, happy, healthy life, doesn't mean that I'm supposed to overstep and go into that area of of where you're working in their life and where you're moving. And so my son being almost 40, and this recent breakdown, it landed my husband in the emergency room. And you know, with symptoms of thinking he was having either a heart attack or something.
Brenda Payne (16:26.061)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (16:30.274)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (16:38.575)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (16:38.914)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (16:43.44)
Something serious was going on, I know his stomach was bothering and there was just a lot going on. And you know, it really was a result of all the stress he was going through. And and I had to step back and and say, wait a minute now, we're not twenty years younger.
Brenda Payne (16:43.735)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (16:50.72)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (16:51.161)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (16:57.874)
And we've been doing this for 20 years, and we and every time we think we're pulling back and we don't think we're enabling and we're trying to stay out and let them and let them figure it out and just be praying and encouraging them. We I find that there it's always a new challenge, and it's always something where the Lord is saying, okay, Dawn, in this phase, you have to trust me deeper, and you have to be less engaged as an actual parent figure. And
Alex Kocher (17:14.627)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (17:27.168)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (17:27.566)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (17:27.828)
you know, more as a not necessarily a friend, but more as somebody who is there on the sidelines observing, loving, and praying. And to be honest with you, this is the first time six months I saw my son once in six months. And that has never happened. And very little we're not mad at him or anything. We just saw him for Father's Day. He did come and meet us for Father's Day and he's doing well right now. But whether he's doing well or he's in the the bottom, what the Lord
Brenda Payne (17:44.108)
Hmm. Hmm.
Dawn Ward (17:57.601)
Lord is showing me is that we need to be
Parenting from a distance more. Like we and that sounds hard for parents to hear. But in our case, our son is almost 40. And at this point, what Jesus told me before that before the last breakdown and during that time, six months ago, my son had a a car accident. He was arrested twice with two different precincts and so four different arrests. He attempted suicide. He went into psychosis and was missing. And this all happened within a week or two periods.
Alex Kocher (18:04.121)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (18:04.194)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (18:26.828)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (18:31.77)
period. And so you can only imagine the what we were being hit with. And he has a significant other who, you know, that really kind of controls a lot too of what, you know, of what
Brenda Payne (18:32.45)
Wow.
Mm. Mm.
Alex Kocher (18:36.367)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (18:43.042)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (18:44.78)
We how involved we are and we aren't. And so the reason I explain all this is because I I'm not even an expert yet, because I'm going through new stuff, you know, that's requiring a different level of faith. And but what the Lord told me before all this happened is he said, Dawn, this is your son's life barring a miracle. This is it.
This is what his life has looked like for almost, I guess, 15, 16 years now. He has to be the one to decide that this is no longer the way he can live his life. And but then he gave me hope because I felt really deflated when he said miracle. You know, I was like, But then but then he said, but everyone
Brenda Payne (19:05.005)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (19:12.791)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (19:12.92)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (19:17.015)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (19:26.26)
All of my children are miracles. If Satan had his way, he would destroy every life. And so I'm I'm in the miracle working business, but you have to trust me and you have to allow me to do what I'm doing. And if things look worse, you have to just keep praying and believing and standing on the fact that I love him more than you do, and that I'm I'm not gonna give up on him. And if I'm not gonna give up on him, then you can just trust me that even if things don't look good.
Brenda Payne (19:51.672)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (19:56.167)
They look worse instead of better that I'm still moving in that situation. And it's been a revelation to me. He said it to me multiple times over the last 20 years about trusting him. But when you move from a maybe a three-alarm fire to a four alarm fire to a five alarm fire, yeah, the instinct is to just go in all guns blazing, you know. And and so it's been it's been
Brenda Payne (20:06.422)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (20:15.96)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (20:23.043)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (20:23.362)
Yeah.
Dawn Ward (20:26.0)
Been an unusual time for me, and I I could only attribute it to God's peace that I've been able to just sit and
And really strive to have just normal conversations with him, send him a funny text or him to send me something, and and and to not ask those questions about like how are you doing? Or and and it's just been a a different and let him volunteer that information. And then also not to feel like we have to rush in and help if he does tell us something heavy. So I I'm just saying that to parents. I I'm not wanting them to be discouraged if it seems like their battle's going on a long time. What I want to encourage them.
Brenda Payne (20:53.218)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (21:02.358)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (21:04.34)
With is that God has grace for you in that moment. And that so when you start to think, well, what's going to happen if this is going on another five years from now, or another 10 years from now, or what's going to happen if, for heaven's sake, I lose my child? His grace is there. Our Lord's grace is there for us. And his power is perfected in our weakness. And I don't say these any of these things as cliche. He has really revealed himself to be faithful to me.
Brenda Payne (21:07.277)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (21:07.693)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (21:18.476)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (21:30.826)
Mm-hmm. Amen. Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (21:31.343)
Mm. Yeah, it's a great encouragement. I think you're given so much permission, Dawn, for there to be different ways you approach the same suffering. This suffering's gone on for a long time for you, and and different seasons of of how maybe how you handle it, different seasons of of what the Lord is challenging you with, and different seasons of what the Lord's comforting you with.
Dawn Ward (21:56.653)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (21:56.812)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (21:57.379)
Yeah, one of the things I'm thinking about when you're talking is how all mothers, but even more so mothers of prodigals, like the question that haunts us and and them is where did I go wrong? If our anything goes wrong with our kids, it's where did I go wrong? So why do you think mothers carry so much guilt and shame with their even with their adult children who are choosing destructive paths?
Dawn Ward (22:11.682)
Yes.
Dawn Ward (22:23.276)
Okay, so mothers, right, we we gave birth to these children and and the you know, my husband always says, Honey, you gotta cut the umbilical cord because it's like, yeah, the truth of the matter is is there's something special. There's a very special connection with moms and children. We really are their nurturers. We're think about when
Alex Kocher (22:30.412)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (22:42.08)
I mean, I know the dads especially nowadays are very involved, but still mom decides what clothes the child's gonna wear, you know, and she decides the doctor and she decides that, you know, if there's the teachers. Like it's just the things that seem to fall on us. And dad may be involved, but the truth of the matter is is it really does land on us as moms for the most part, the general rule is that we're the ones that are just nurturing and and and looking out for our children's best and what what the what they're gonna eat.
Brenda Payne (22:45.677)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (22:49.909)
Mm mm.
Alex Kocher (22:49.974)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (23:00.724)
Yeah.
Dawn Ward (23:12.064)
And if they're allergic to certain things and all of that. It's from the time they're little. So it's really hard to turn it off, to turn off mom mode when our children, you know, decide to go prodigal or and to become wayward or to turn against their faith. Gratefully, my sons have never, you know, they've never ever, like they're never convinced to go any other religion or to become atheists or anything like that. They they still profess Jesus'.
Alex Kocher (23:18.562)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (23:19.286)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (23:24.536)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (23:41.917)
Lord. And that gives me a lot of peace because for a long time I was praying for them. You know, I wanted them to be healed and ha and healthy and all of that first. And the Lord had me shift to really praying for their salvation and and the assurance of their faith. And of course, they're not, you know, both of my sons are not really out there on fire for Jesus and serving him right now. But even around the dinner table at Father's Day, w they were talking, they were the ones bringing up, you know, Christian.
Brenda Payne (23:54.56)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (24:11.8)
And talking about what's going on in the world and about, you know, persecution. And they were talking about all of it just from a perspective of them being Christians. So I was grateful not to have that land on my plate because I know some parents have really had to deal with the pain of the children actually rejecting their faith. So, in in this case, you know, I'm grateful for that, even though I don't like seeing the other things, and it hurts me and grieves my heart to see the other things. I would probably have to write, I'd probably have to go through another whole breakdown if that's
Brenda Payne (24:25.547)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (24:29.814)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (24:29.942)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (24:38.135)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (24:41.68)
That happened. So when we say wayward, I really, my heart really breaks for those parents who have received that message from their children. I want nothing to do with your God. I want nothing to do with your faith. And just turning their back and basically saying, I want nothing to do with you because, you know, your faith, and just rejecting their parents. That seems like a tremendously hard thing for a parent to have to experience. As far as
Brenda Payne (24:42.83)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (24:54.86)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (25:04.129)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (25:10.231)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (25:12.06)
the addiction goes, you know, until I got more information when I was first learning about addiction all those years ago, they it was a disease and it was something that they basically back then believed they they were born with, this strong pre you know predisposition. So if they it could be her inherited, so if they were to use drugs or alcohol, even a few times chances were they would become addicted, where somebody else could use those same substances.
And not become addicted. And so for me, it was like, did this get passed down through my family genes? This, you know, the strong, heavy addiction. And even my cousin was addicted to drugs and alcohol and things. And so I was looking at all of that and asking myself if there was a responsibility there on my part that I should have done a better job of, you know, really warning them and asking more questions of the doctors about what they were prescribing and all of that. And so as I became more educated and
realized you know that yes while some people may have more of a predisposition maybe a more it doesn't mean that anybody becomes addicted other than the fact that they they have been using these drugs and they have become abuse they have started abusing them and so that you know and and that's something that we all have to take seriously. I don't drink I don't drink at all because of what I saw in my family. I wouldn't want to take a chance with it. And so you know just logically I why would I gamble with something that I've seen
Brenda Payne (26:38.049)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (26:41.296)
destroy so many lives. And so I think, you know, I had to educate myself to understand that that I didn't I didn't force them to use these drugs. And I didn't, you know, there weren't so there were things that while maybe I could have had a little bit better radar going or something. But I'm gonna tell you, Alex, that what happened was I f I dealt with a lot of that emotionally with when it was only one child. When it became two children, I started
I said, I have to have parented them wrong. I have to have done something wrong for this to have happened. When it happened with my husband, I was then like, you know, what am I? Like, is this just something that my husband and my kids have to just be drugged up to be to live in the same house with me? Like, you would not believe what the enemy does to our heads, right? And how he can mess with us. And
Alex Kocher (27:17.806)
yeah.
Brenda Payne (27:18.465)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (27:24.238)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (27:28.927)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (27:30.166)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (27:35.121)
Mm, no. Mm.
Alex Kocher (27:36.503)
Yeah.
Dawn Ward (27:41.579)
I I was strongly equipped spiritually to to know the word of God, to be in the presence of God, to be in the word, and to know the truth, and to know that each person is respon is accountable to God for their own cho their own decisions and choices. But my mother's heart and then my heart as a wife, that was some healing that had to take place for me and some freedom that had to become real revelation that had to come become real to me for me to be free.
Alex Kocher (28:10.888)
Mm mm, mm hmm.
Brenda Payne (28:11.223)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. all that's so good. There's so much we can unpack, but we're gonna continue to kind of move through some of the other questions we have because I've got a a million thoughts on what you said. It's just all really good. I think we would say if guilt and shame is one battle.
Dawn Ward (28:11.472)
Yeah.
Dawn Ward (28:18.216)
Ha ha ha.
Alex Kocher (28:21.75)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (28:27.083)
then maybe the next biggest battle is gonna be control, right? Especially when we see our children making these choices and they are our children who we have invested our heart, soul, our mind into we want to fix, we want to rescue, we want to intervene, and we want to be God. And and yet God repeatedly calls us to trust him with our children and with the outcomes we can't manage. And I know what I I found
Dawn Ward (28:30.552)
Yes.
Dawn Ward (28:43.352)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (28:57.097)
personally and as I talk with mothers, one of the hardest things to know is to have discernment and wisdom to know when is God calling us to act? When is God calling us to wait? Like surrender can look different in different seasons. So tell us a little bit about what does the surrender journey look like for you?
Alex Kocher (29:11.17)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (29:15.404)
Mm. Okay, so control, like I said. Control that was I think
You know, when we're looking at idolatry and we can talk about that whole thing too, but the truth is is that we all have something that we run to that we almost numb ourselves with, you know, that we that it brings us comfort. It brings us a a sense that, hey, I'm doing okay. And for me, control was that. So that came in the form of trying to fix, repair, be their Holy Spirit, be their conscience. And one and I can say across just from years of observation.
Observing moms in this situation is that we often feel that it's on us to do it. And it's very humbling. It's a battle with our pride to let go of that. And I'm gonna be real careful how I say this, but some of us struggle with we want our child to have help, but we want to be the source of that help. So, in other words, it's hard to release that maybe we're gonna have nothing to do with their freedom. God's going to bring
Either a complete stranger or a friend or just an aha moment for them. And that mom didn't have to send the right scripture. Mom didn't have to take credit by praying the right prayer. Mom didn't have to come up with the right doctor or the right program or the right rehab or the right facility to send them to the Christian facility or whatever. And for me, when I stopped doing all of that, searching and researching and trying to, you know, what should I send them to Coaster?
Brenda Payne (30:30.379)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (30:50.87)
Rica, should I send into Mexico? I hear there's this going on and that going on. And my brain had to stop doing that and just be still.
I didn't know what to do with myself because that felt like giving up. You know, it felt like I wasn't being the mom I should be. And that was a big process for me. It wasn't like I just I had the aha moment, but it's not like I got over it right away. You know, there was still that temptation to, I see this thing on Instagram, you know, this to to edify or build him up. I'm gonna send it to him. Or I'm reading this scripture today that God meant for me, but I'm gonna send it to him.
Brenda Payne (31:12.373)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (31:28.42)
And so that was, believe it or not, that was all control. It was all me doing it to make to take that hit, to make me feel calm, to meet, you know, I feel like I did something. I feel a little bit more in control. I feel less anxious. And the Lord had to show me, like, Dawn, are you willing to sit in the pain? Are you willing to sit in being uncomfortable to see me move, to trust me in this situation?
Brenda Payne (31:52.406)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (31:58.273)
Yeah.
And also, are you willing to understand that maybe right now you're part of the problem and not part of the solution? And so maybe anything that comes from mom might be a trigger. Meant for good, intended for good, but it might be the very thing that either can causes them to stumble or causes them to excuse the behavior. So the very thing that I'm thinking is helping could actually be enabling this mindset of theirs to go on. I mean, it's I'm telling you, ladies, it's
Brenda Payne (32:21.877)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (32:28.779)
Yeah.
Dawn Ward (32:29.776)
It's only God that can, the Lord and His Holy Spirit, that can reveal to us that what looks good isn't good at that moment. And what looks evil and looks hard and looks like it's hurting them might be the very thing they need. And it can only be the Holy Spirit that can do that for us. And and time in the words that we know the voice of the Lord when he speaks to us. And so, how do I know the voice of the Lord when he speaks to me? generally, if it's something I would do naturally.
Alex Kocher (32:37.612)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (32:43.188)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (32:43.317)
Dawn Ward (32:59.876)
You know, I'm just gonna do it, like then that's not so much him telling me. But when he's telling me to go against my flesh, when he's telling me to die to myself and to crucify my flesh and to trust him in that moment, that's generally when it's a little more like, Lord, okay, what are you saying? What am you know? And in that time of me just having to process how he's speaking to me. And and now, after especially the last six months that we just of talked about.
Things looking different, I feel like I have more clarity. I feel like I can hear him more and more clearly when he speaks to me because my brain isn't anxiously seeking the solution all the time, and it's not anxiously thinking about my son for every single thing. You know, any anything that that any book I pick up, any music I hear, that it would always turn to how you know, me obsessing over my child and what I could do to help him. And now it's like the Lord.
Brenda Payne (33:46.432)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (33:57.729)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (33:59.489)
Lord's actually pouring into me. And so as he pours into me, I'm able to better hear him when he speaks to me and actually tells me to do something or tells me to move. And I recently did share a sermon from an old pastor, David Wilkerson, who passed away, I don't know, 15 or years ago or so. But the sermon I just came across and it was so powerful. And I and I actually sent it to my son. And I said, son, you know, this is gonna is a 50-minute sermon. It's gonna take some time for you to listen to.
Alex Kocher (34:18.188)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (34:29.432)
And I really pray that you'll be interested in listening to it. but other than that, I'm not gonna check up on him. I'm not gonna find out if he did listen to it or anything like that. But I really felt like the Lord wanted me to share that with him. Maybe it'll be something he'll return to. But I was able to have a peace that I was there wasn't anything in there of me trying to manipulate the situation. It felt like a lot more surrendered and more of me trusting the Lord. And isn't that terrible? It's 20 years for me to
Brenda Payne (34:37.718)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:48.33)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:56.02)
No, I get it. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (34:57.037)
Mm. Yeah. Hmm. I think most of us in our suffering have have that, whatever our suffering is, I think we have that story, Don, of just like, why couldn't I have gotten this sooner? Like, why why did it take so long? And it's its own process just to trust the Lord that He was even in the timing of it and that He could have shown us that the first the first month, the first year, you know.
Dawn Ward (34:57.774)
To get to this point.
Dawn Ward (35:10.707)
Right, right.
Alex Kocher (35:24.201)
And that he had to he didn't waste anything in that whole process of us learning those lessons, but
Dawn Ward (35:27.948)
No.
Alex Kocher (35:31.095)
Boy, that's hard. And again, I just think you're given so much grace and so much permission for learning how to love is gonna look differently for each person. And we said earlier each season, but you're even saying like it's become so personalized between you and the Holy Spirit of knowing how to love this child right now. is this your concept of rugged love that you talk about?
Dawn Ward (35:40.365)
Yes.
Dawn Ward (35:50.637)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (35:59.853)
Yeah, that's still one of my favorite books. I was at a recent conference and it was sitting there and I was passing it to everybody. Letting go. letting go, rugged love for Wayward Souls. Dave Harvey and another minister wrote that one. And and yeah, you know, I I even wrote about the book in my book. I referred to the book in my book. And now I'm still like, wow, you know, it's like more revelation about what rugged love is. And they refer to it as love with teeth. And I think it really is a love that's willing to.
Count the cost.
Alex Kocher (36:30.55)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (36:30.622)
It's you know, we all we all some of us, especially if we're a little bit older, remember that term tough love and there was I know when my mother and step her and her husband were having problems with my brother, he was into this tough her the stepfather was into this tough love movement, wanted to just throw the fifteen-year out fifteen-year-old out on the street. And I think it it kind of gave this bad feeling, you know, of what of tough love is that the parent just says, Well, I'm gonna throw my kid out until they get their act together. And if they don't get their act together
together. well, can you imagine what that would feel like to just as a parent to have to do that? I mean, that would have to be a pretty desperate time to have to get to that point. God doesn't generally let most of us get off the hook quite that easily. And I'm not saying that's easy by any means, but what I mean is that generally he is saying you are the parent and you are invested in them and you will always be their parent. And this isn't going to stop whether they're living under your roof or
Brenda Payne (37:11.07)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (37:30.456)
during this season they can you know you cannot have communication with them for whatever reason. It is not going to stop that you are their parent and it is going to hurt to love these people who in your life that are wayward and that are d self-destructing and are hurting themselves. And so loving you know rugged love to me is it's a s it's that sacrificial love. I still see like Abraham putting his son on the altar and
being willing to you know pick up this knife. And and I and while the Lord isn't asking us to do something like that to our children, sometimes that relationship is that we don't we don't know if if the r relationship's ever going to be resurrected the way that we hope that it will be. We don't know when we lay them down and we say, Lord, no matter how much this hurts, if I'm in the way of what you're doing, then give me the strength to step aside and trust you.
Alex Kocher (38:28.47)
Mm-hmm.
Dawn Ward (38:29.331)
And and
s if my son was seventeen or eighteen, my like my younger son when this was going on, we tended to hold him closer. But you know what he was I did have to put him out for it wasn't very long because he was young and he didn't survive out there very long, but he was out for about a month before he finally asked for help and was willing to to really take it seriously. You know, we'd already invested in getting him some help and he had relapsed and all of that. this older son, I think his older brother I think what happened was you know there's so many mental health
Diagnoses. And they start putting our kids on all these psych meds and things, and you don't even know half the time what's really going on with the brain, what's spiritual, what's going on physical, what's the addiction, what's these different drugs that they're taking, medications that they're taking. And it's really hard as a parent sometimes, especially if they do go into disappearing. Who do you think was out looking for him when he he disappeared? You know, calling the police and calling the hospitals and stuff. Of course, mom and dad. So there's always going to be those times that.
Brenda Payne (39:12.598)
Yeah.
Dawn Ward (39:30.968)
Lord's going to call us to be engaged again because we are the parents. And so it's it's not something neat and tidy and easy. And and that's the point about, I think, with rugged love is that it's a love that hurts. And it's a but it's a love that's willing to put aside
Alex Kocher (39:38.356)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (39:38.566)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (39:50.379)
our own comforts and our own need for security and our own need for control in order to just be obedient. And so for me, recognizing that
that you know, that maybe all my good intention was actually causing more harm than good. That was one of the hardest reasons for me to awarenesses that I had to live with to finally be able to let go and to let God do what He is doing in my Sun's life. But it it really became very humbling for me to say, Lord, I've kind of realized now that I'm not the answer. I can continue to pray and I can continue to you know, encourage, but
My son is going to find this, th th his hope is in you. And and so that so yeah, but it's not easy. And that's why yeah, rugged love is the way that they word it and everything is so is so good and it means so much more to me now that I've had to experience it personally.
Brenda Payne (40:46.025)
Don, you have your support group, and I'm just wondering as I'm listening to you and just knowing my own story, it is so messy, and nobody can give you three points for this whole journey. You know, hold on to Jesus, be in his word, pray, listen to the Holy Spirit. But in terms of just community, how would you speak to allowing other people? What's the value in having other people walk the journey with us, having other people speak into our life?
When it comes to addiction, and then maybe even what is some of the harm or some of the things that we should avoid if somebody is coming to us? In other words, if we're a community for somebody, we can either really help them or hurt them. And what would be some some ways that you would encourage us? Did that question make sense? That was a lot wrapped up. Okay.
Dawn Ward (41:34.063)
Okay, so
It made a lot of sense. It made it no it it it did make a lot of sense. And I'm thinking about the last almost ten years that I've had my group, which I, you know, I really when the Lord called me to the ministry, I was like, Lord, anything but addiction. And he just went radio silent on me and I was that's that's it. And one of the first things he had me do was actually start a Facebook online support group. And I was like, Lord, why do we need another support group on Facebook? They've got so many of them. That's what Facebook's all about, is community and all this. And again, he just said, just do it. And I did really didn't even know a whole lot about how to do it.
Brenda Payne (41:49.329)
Dawn Ward (42:05.264)
Had been in other groups, but I and I had helped administer in other groups, but I hadn't actually started my own. And so at that point, he then gave me the mission of the group would be to encourage the moms, pray for our children, and to glorify him. So some of the things that we do differently, we don't post before and after pictures of our children. We don't post pictures of our children while they're under the influence. we don't we don't talk about medication and science and all of
that. there are other groups that do that. What we talk about is about our faith and about and we pray for each other and we encourage each other in the word of God. Now when moms come in they often want a vet. Like this is finally, you know, a place who knows they could be copying and pasting that post in several different groups in Facebook. So like they come into our group and they read our roles and all of this and then the first thing they do is just blow by blow everything their kid is involved in and everything their kid's doing and
you know, stole my debit card and went and did this and, you know, got drugs and da-da-da. And they tell you the whole thing. And but I feel like that's okay when someone is first going through this.
If it continues to be that we don't see growth in that person and we are just listening and just being a listening ear, but they're not really gleaning that message of hope, and they're not learning how to actually grow spiritually themselves. That's what I think when even as a friend, we become more of a stumbling block to them than actually encouraging them. And so, yes, listening is important, but we don't want any
anyone to stay stuck. And so what I'm now starting to see has, you know, because there's been many times I'm like, Lord, is it time could should I close down the group? Because it's a lot. You know, it's a lot to
Dawn Ward (43:58.817)
see what they're going through and hear what they're going through. And I try to be very personally involved. And so it can be a lot. And but now what I'm really starting to see over the last few years is the moms doing this for each other. Where before it was me and the administrators encouraging and building the moms up. Now I see moms in the group doing it. And another thing is even moms who've lost their children to addiction are remaining in the group. And they are not all of them but a strong amount are remaining in the group and still encourage
Alex Kocher (44:10.431)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (44:28.72)
Encouraging and still, you know, helping others face their fears and and just by even living by example of God's grace and carrying them through what we would consider the very worst thing they could possibly go through is the loss of their child. And so now I'm seeing the purpose of community that that the longer that we're
You know, we're not just triaging an emergency situation. We are there to walk through this with each other. And and we are there to and and to to talk about other things too. Sometimes moms will get on and say, I know this isn't about addiction, but can I ask for prayer for this? And and or I'm gonna hip going on a job interview. Can I ask for prayer for this? So now we're starting to live life with each other. And and I think that's what's important about community is that we come alongside and that
Brenda Payne (44:53.341)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (45:18.604)
we understand that every it takes you know the time frame for each person is different in how long it might take for them some people seem to struggle longer and some seem to kind of get it right away and and I'm I always admire those that are able to just right away seem to have just trust God so well with what they're going through. And but but that's what community is all about. You know we're all from different backgrounds and different experiences and and so I'm grateful for the community
because they've been there for me as well.
Brenda Payne (45:51.734)
Hmm. That's good. Well, where's there's so much more that I wish we had time to talk about. I have a lot of other qu we have a lot of questions that we didn't even get to, so we may just have to have you come back and finish the rest of But I I guess just maybe as a last question, Alex, is there a last question you would want to ask?
Dawn Ward (45:57.452)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (46:03.892)
Yes.
Dawn Ward (46:04.547)
huh, appreciate it.
Alex Kocher (46:11.859)
I think the the let's end on a note of hope. We always say when we're talking to someone, we need to make sure we give hope. So if there's a listener that's living in the middle of this story, how would you encourage them to keep hope alive?
Dawn Ward (46:15.181)
Yes.
Dawn Ward (46:26.466)
Well, our hope is in the Lord, right? The maker of heaven and earth. And he's faithful and we do not know the plan that he has. One of the things that really helped me to surrender and live in a place of hope was I was always asking what if?
And the Lord reminded me that Dawn, you never know what news you're gonna get on any given day. You don't know, you know, you might get news from the doctor that something's wrong with your health, or you might your you might find out that another one of your children something happened. And I want you to rest in knowing that I'm in control even if. And when and I've had so many moms tell me that when they finally read that and and took that in and said, Jesus, and it reminds me of Habakkuk.
when he says, you know, if there's no cattle in the field and there's no fruit on the vine, yet will yet, he uses that word, yet, will I rejoice in the God of my salvation? And so moms, be praying for your children. Pray for their salvation. Pray that that the Lord will give you the faith to just trust him, whatever you see going on. Give yourself permission to be human and to not carry this weight all by yourself and to and to be okay with that.
Brenda Payne (47:17.813)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (47:37.674)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Dawn Ward (47:43.585)
And to and then to have your keep your eyes open because we we serve a miracle working God and I hear testimony after testimony. I have testimony under my roof right now. Two of my my husband and my younger son are are free, they're doing great. And even my older son now six months, and we and I'm grateful for every day of that. And I see him making progress. And so let's not lose hope because of our fear of what might happen or what could go wrong, and just really enjoy what.
Brenda Payne (47:52.767)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (48:05.631)
Mm.
Dawn Ward (48:13.538)
God is doing in our lives and in the lives of our families, and rejoicing in that. You know, and and also look around and see what else he's doing in the rest with the rest of your family. Don't don't be so myopyopic that you're only looking at this child because all of us live very blessed lives, and we have a Lord who loves us and He loves to bless us. So find your hope in Him.
Brenda Payne (48:22.74)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (48:29.333)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with us. And we just appreciate you and the work you're doing. And we'll put up all the information of how people can find your group and your book and all the things to be able to continue to see what the Lord is doing and how He's using you and just to continue to follow your story. So thank you, Dawn.
Dawn Ward (48:38.946)
Thank you.
Dawn Ward (48:57.378)
Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'll be praying for your listeners.
Alex Kocher (49:00.811)
Thank you.