S14 Ep. 1 / How to Leave an Abusive Marriage and Stay a Christian with Leslie Vernick
Brenda Payne (00:08.11)
Hey Alex, good to see you. I'm super excited to continue our series on people and resources that have shaped our life and our ministry. And today we are going to welcome a super special guest to us, Leslie Vernick. She's probably best known for helping women navigate emotionally destructive relationships through a very Christ-centered lens. Leslie is a relationship coach and internationally sought speaker.
A podcaster and an author of seven, at least seven books, and three that we often recommend are the emotionally destructive relationship, the emotionally destructive marriage, as well as how to act right when your spouse acts wrong, which I always love that title of that book. she has been married to her husband Howard for more than 50 years, which is amazing. Congratulations on that, Leslie. Has two grown children, three grandchildren.
Alex Kocher (00:42.349)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (00:52.684)
Ha ha ha ha.
Brenda Payne (01:05.356)
and Leslie, we were talking before the interview just what a profound impact your ministry has had on us personally and professionally. I think Alex and I decided that you were probably the earliest and probably the greatest mentor in helping us really understand and challenge many assumptions that have left hurting women feeling unseen, unsupported, and sometimes even blamed for the harm they're experiencing.
Alex Kocher (01:30.753)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (01:31.37)
So we are just very grateful for your clarity, the courage you've brought, the compassion you have, and the conversation, the way you have basically shaped this conversation over more than 35 years. So it's just a joy and an honor to have you join our conversation today.
Leslie Vernick (01:49.888)
Thank you. It's it's an honor to be here. I'm just, you know, I love women so much and I've worked with women my whole life. And as a woman, I have a daughter, I have three granddaughters. I wanna be different in the future. I wanna be different in the church, especially, not just in the culture, but in the church for women.
Alex Kocher (02:02.37)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (02:09.038)
Well, just to start us off, Leslie, would you tell us a little bit about yourself, like your counseling journey, and then what led you into this ministry, helping women navigate emotionally destructive relationships?
Leslie Vernick (02:24.413)
Yeah, so I was abused as a child. so my parents were divorced when I was eight. My mom left my dad, didn't tell us where we were going, I was the oldest. And my younger sister and brother were so I was eight, she was four, he was two.
And so we got in the U-Haul truck and my mom was an alcoholic. She had some mental health issues, bipolar. And so we were kind of afraid of her. We didn't know where we were going. My dad tried to find us. So eventually she divorced him. I won't tell the whole story because now it's totally understandable why she left, but at the time we didn't understand that.
But there was a lot of conflict, a lot of alienation going on. But my mom was a single mom when there was no single moms, there was no culture of single parent families, anything like that. so it was it was very awkward in school, felt very un unpopular. I was an unpopular kid. My mother physically abused me, she verbally abused me, and by the time I was 14 years old, she lost custody of us. she had an outburst in the court with the judge, and the judge got a mouthful of
what she would say to us and he said I understand now and so he awarded my dad who men never got custody in those days full custody of all three of us so we went to live with my dad the short story I became a Christian but I still had this really volatile relationship with my mother so I didn't invite her to my wedding because I couldn't trust that she would behave herself. I didn't know that she would you know start blasting my father or start blasting me or my husband my husband was he you know saw you saw him he's he's a big man
Alex Kocher (03:52.682)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (04:03.546)
He was scared of her. She was five foot tall and she was a very scary woman. So, anyway, so my counseling ministry, once I started counseling, was always interested in abuse, but abused children. So I was very interested in like I was I was pounding the pavement in the churches in the 80s when the child abuse laws started getting started, because there were no child abuse laws back then.
Alex Kocher (04:15.086)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (04:25.447)
And saying to the churches, wait a minute, you just on Sunday said, Hey, do we have any volunteers for the boys' campout this weekend? And three men raised their hand. How do you know these men are safe men? they're Christians. I mean, there was no rules, there was no screening, there was nothing back then. So back then I was like, you have to get screened. You have to, you know, know these people. They could be a pedophile. And they're like, what? No, they're Christians.
Alex Kocher (04:36.897)
Right.
Brenda Payne (04:39.139)
Wow.
Leslie Vernick (04:53.073)
So I've always been involved in abuse. So how I transitioned, two things. One is I didn't know how to have a relationship with my mother. Did I have to have a relationship with my mother?
Alex Kocher (05:04.098)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (05:04.585)
There was no book on boundaries. There was no talk on any of this. It was forgive, forget, get along, because reconciliation was the most important thing, even if it was with a really toxic person. And so, do I let my mother babysit my kids when I can't trust her to be safe? Absolutely not. But I felt guilty. I'm being hard-hearted. I'm being unforgiving. I'm holding a record of wrongs. All the scripture that was used against me in that I began to say,
Alex Kocher (05:07.032)
All right.
Alex Kocher (05:21.58)
Hmm.
Leslie Vernick (05:34.549)
Wait a minute, God has to have something more to say about this. So I did my work so that I could begin to heal and I could begin to navigate without guilt appropriate boundaries and what would be the requirements for reconciliation if we were going to do that. What would that look like? And that took me a long time, but it really impacted my counseling. As I was working with children, so for example, I worked with a lot of churches where there was sexual abuse of a child and there was a lot of
Brenda Payne (05:37.368)
Right.
Alex Kocher (05:55.224)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (06:04.432)
pressure to reconcile the family. That daddy needed to come home. Even if he abused them, he's sorry and he won't do it again. And again, the laws weren't as robust as they are now. They weren't as careful with all of that. And so I'm like, wait a minute. No, I don't think that's a good idea. So all of that in my studying scripture prepared me for my eventually calling that God said when I wrote my book, The Emotionally Destructive Relationship, I really talked about my own story and how do we deal with people who have sinned against us. But after that book,
Brenda Payne (06:10.883)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (06:25.268)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (06:34.305)
I really became convicted that there were lots of other good writers, good teachers who were writing about good marriages and all of that. My place was to talk to women who were in bad marriages. Because when I wrote my book on depression, I was seeing a boatload of depressed women who were in destructive marriages. And their solution to that was antidepressants, or if they couldn't take antidepressants because that wasn't biblical.
Brenda Payne (06:45.56)
Hm.
Brenda Payne (06:52.331)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (07:00.833)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (07:01.309)
They were sneaking Xanax and vodka in order to have sex with their husband. And I'm like, this can't be God's best for them.
Alex Kocher (07:04.555)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Wow.
Brenda Payne (07:11.309)
Hmm. Yeah, that is you are you are really such a pioneer. Like God put you at a place, gave you a story, put you in a time in history where you have been, I think, even more of a pioneer than I realize. So wow, that is really amazing. As you were talking, I was just thinking about how confusing
Alex Kocher (07:25.825)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (07:31.585)
destructive relationships are. Like as a child, obviously so confusing. But even as an adult, if you were, you know, you're raised in a healthy environment and then you get married and you think it's supposed to be safe and stable and sane and it turns out crazy. and
One of the the categories that we just love is, you know, how you have taught women how to make distinctions between disappointing, difficult, and destructive relationships. And so could you speak a little bit to that? Because there's the confusion, I think, of the situation, and then there's the added confusion, as you mentioned, of the church. And the situation I kept thinking, you know, you know, honor your mother and father, and then all the things that come with that, or you know, all the verses on marriage that put the responsibility on the wife and the situation. So
That we love frameworks. So much of our ministry is trying to give biblical frameworks and worldview like simple which call them hooks and ladders that people can remember. And this particular teaching of yours I think is so powerful and is so accessible. So could you explain a little bit about the discernment and the distinction that comes with those categories?
Leslie Vernick (08:36.445)
Yeah, so every relationship I've been married fifty years, over fifty years, every relationship has its difficult times, seasons of difficulties, whether they're kids who are acting up or autistic or on the spectrum in some other way, or health health issues, or travel, you know, military involvement. you know, marriages are hard. You have stressors in all kinds of ways. And those stressors, God tells us, are meant to mature us. They're not meant to destroy us. We don't want
them and nobody volunteers for them. But they are in our life too, James says, consider it all joy whenever you have these stressors in your life, difficulties, because they do have a purpose and they are to help you grow up, mature. And so if we can have one
Like maybe overall arching biblical pre supposition here is that God's will is for you to mature. It is God's will for you to grow and mature. That's his ultimate purpose, for you not to remain childlike or child-ish, for you to have the faith of a child, but for you to mature in your full humanness. And so those difficulties are not reasons to divorce, they're reasons to do your work and to grow. Now that doesn't mean that each person is going to actually do that. And so sometimes a
Alex Kocher (09:29.623)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (09:30.091)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (09:41.794)
Yes.
Leslie Vernick (09:51.826)
difficult marriage determines deteriorates into a destructive one because someone isn't doing their work. A disappointing marriage is something again all of us struggle with because the person we married has flaws that we didn't see when we were dating them. And so when I used to do some premarital counseling I would always say, you know, nobody gets all 52 cards in the deck. So make sure you know which cards are missing. Right?
Brenda Payne (10:00.6)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (10:04.758)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (10:12.077)
Ha
Brenda Payne (10:12.683)
I love it.
Leslie Vernick (10:16.979)
You know, if if they're a little sloppy or, you know, they, you know, aren't good with plumbing and all that.
Brenda Payne (10:21.312)
Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (10:23.389)
Maybe you can live with that, but you might not be able to live with if they're a liar and a cheater. So you gotta know which cards are missing. and so yes, you're gonna be disappointed. So I tell a story in my book about a woman who came to me for for counseling because her husband was kind of boring. And he was, but when she was dating him, that felt really good because her home life was so chaotic that his steady eddy kind of lifestyle was so appealing to her.
Brenda Payne (10:28.023)
Yeah. Yeah, it's good.
Leslie Vernick (10:49.681)
And yet now, after 10 years, it's like, I'm you know, I'm looking around for some more people who will be interesting to me. That's not a reason for divorce, that's not a difficult destructive marriage, but it is a disappointing one. And how you handle that again, disappointment is meant to mature us. It's meant to help us to grow. And so those things are used by God for our maturity. But destructive is a little bit
Alex Kocher (11:06.349)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (11:06.626)
Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (11:13.021)
different. And I think maybe the clearest way to to give you a chart for this in a simple way, because this is what happens with biblical counseling or church counseling or even professional counseling. Two sinners enter a room for help.
And the counselor can see that, the biblical counselor can see that, the pastor can see that. So it becomes, well, who are you to judge? You're both sinful, you're both sinning, you know, you're sitting in your way, you're sitting in your way. So let's make nice and forgive and make it better. But there's a difference between a healthy sinner and an unhealthy immature sinner. And the healthy sinner isn't a perfect person, so they may do something, they may even have an affair, they may even lie in moment. But when they're confronted or when it's exposed,
They own it. They take responsibility for it. They admit that they did wrong and they do whatever they need to do. Part of repentance is what do I need to do so this doesn't happen again? Because I want to grow through this. I want to learn from this. I don't want to repeat this. So that's what healthy sinners do. And so that's how you can repair a broken marriage if it breaks in those ways. But an unhealthy sinner tends to deflect, deny.
Alex Kocher (11:59.639)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (12:10.253)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (12:26.987)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (12:28.253)
blame, avoid, and they, you know, don't take responsibility, they won't change, and they repeat the behavior over and over again. And so that's where I would start labeling the behaviors more destructive because
When you live with someone who can't take any responsibility for their wrongdoing, can't repair the relationship, every relationship has damage to it. Every relationship, if you're gonna stay in a relationship long term, whether it's with your kids or another adult, there's gonna be some repair needed. But if you can't see that and own that, if you expect amnesty and you expect to have a get-out-of-jail free card every time you do something harmful to someone else, and no empathy for the impact that it's caused.
Alex Kocher (13:10.529)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (13:11.293)
That wrecks the relationship. It wrecks two things. It wrecks safety and it wrecks trust. Like I can't trust you and I don't feel safe around you. And that is destructive.
Alex Kocher (13:18.153)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (13:22.145)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (13:22.593)
Hm. Boy, that's so good. I wanna just a
Piggyback on one thing you said about the idea of maturity, that the Christian walk is about maturity. And one of the things I think it's really hard to mature when you're in a destructive relationship because you're crushed. You know, it's I feel like a lot of times a woman gets smaller, her world gets smaller, her fear gets bigger. And of course the scripture says that perfect love casts out all fear and and love can't be perfected in fear. And so I think, well, if maturity is how well you love, but fear is always bringing you down and crushing you and keeping you in a place where
Alex Kocher (13:39.17)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (13:56.779)
Essentially, you're having to worship the person instead of worship God, then you're not going to be able to mature into the healthy, Christ-like person and the person that God created you to be. So I I like that measurement of just looking at somebody's ability to mature. And like you said, all difficulty is a challenge, if you will, to your maturity. But you're in when you're in a destructive relationship, it's almost impossible to mature because of the nature of that relationship. It is just crushing, it's a crushing weight.
Leslie Vernick (14:25.221)
not only that Brenda but also the churches define maturity for women different than for men. So so so they would say hey it's a it's a noble sacrifice for you to shut up and let him rape you. Right? It's a it's a you're dying to self
Alex Kocher (14:30.171)
Amen.
Brenda Payne (14:30.476)
Hm.
Alex Kocher (14:36.556)
huh.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (14:40.099)
Mm, mm, mm.
Mm.
Leslie Vernick (14:44.563)
by not, you know, complaining or not saying don't do that or not, you know, just c being allowing yourself to be coercively controlled and call that submission. And so I think that the the crazy making and the spiritual
Alex Kocher (14:55.243)
Right.
Brenda Payne (14:55.53)
Yeah, so good.
Leslie Vernick (15:00.689)
mis the misuse of biblical passages to maintain control over a woman and then call that a noble sacrifice. I mean John MacArthur has said, hey, you know, if you're killed in in his church, I don't know if he exactly said it, but his church, hey, if you're killed because you stayed with an abuser, maybe that's a noble sacrifice for Jesus. It's not a noble sacrifice. It's stupidity. And so we're mislabeling behaviors that actually lead to immaturity.
Brenda Payne (15:18.876)
Mm, mm, mm.
Alex Kocher (15:19.418)
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (15:27.337)
Mm-hmm. Yeah
Brenda Payne (15:27.424)
Yes. Well, that's so good. I I I hadn't really thought about it that way, but when the mark of maturity is moved for a woman, then that creates even more confusion for the circumstances confusing, the what churches and even her own personal evaluation of her maturity and who she is in Christ becomes very, very distorted.
Alex Kocher (15:36.586)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (15:46.333)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (15:46.88)
Well, when I would do some work at Westminster Theological Seminary, I would ask the seminary students, okay, let's define a mature person. What does a mature? So let's define a mature man and let's define a mature woman, Christian woman. The names were not the same, the labels were not the same. So a mature Christian woman was meek, submissive, loving.
Alex Kocher (15:53.484)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (16:02.741)
Wow.
Leslie Vernick (16:09.875)
Gracious, gentle, kind, all good things. Nothing wrong with these virtues. They're good virtues. But a mature man was also humble and kind, but he was also strong. He had leadership abilities. He could rightly discern the Word of God. Those things were not in the category for mature women. So basically, mature women are more childlike.
Brenda Payne (16:14.262)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (16:35.809)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (16:36.243)
Than mature man. And yet when we're called to embody the image of God, it is masculine and feminine. And so that we as women are to develop boundaries and discernment and the ability to speak the truth in love and courage and strength and leadership abilities where we're to be leaders, if we're to be leaders. And so just because we're woman doesn't mean those aren't our mandates as well.
Alex Kocher (16:42.313)
Right.
Brenda Payne (17:00.224)
Yeah, that'll preach.
Alex Kocher (17:00.701)
Mm-hmm. Yes. So Leslie, one way that I know Brenda and I both use your book, and I think so many of us who walk with women do, is it's often the first resource I can put.
either your book and often your website because you have so many great resources on your website. But these are often the first resources I can put in women's hands that begin to help them have some language for what's happening in their relationship. And you don't just give language, you give some frameworks, some tools to equip them within the marriage. We're talking, they're not even ready to approach a word like abuse or anything like that, but you are giving them skills.
and training them for how to not only discern what's happening, have language for it, but also speak up and stand up in the relationship. Can you tell us a little bit about how you equip women?
Leslie Vernick (17:58.72)
So when we go back to that idea of healthy and unhealthy, some you know the abuser is obviously unhealthy, but sometimes the victim has her own unhealthiness because of spiritual misteaching or trauma in her own background, things like that. And so part of her work, number one, is to shift the center of her well-being from being a husband-centered woman to a God-centered woman.
Alex Kocher (18:07.435)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (18:07.543)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (18:25.866)
Yes.
Leslie Vernick (18:26.567)
So so many women in destructive marriages are sort of like Leah. If only I do this, he will love me. If only I do this, he will love me. If only I do this, he will love me. And it's like, wait a minute. You are fully loved by your heavenly father. Your husband may not ever love you. That doesn't define your value or worth. And that shift has to begin to change because for her to grow into her being, her husband may not like that.
Alex Kocher (18:26.795)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (18:32.994)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (18:33.067)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (18:44.406)
Hmm. Hmm.
Alex Kocher (18:54.933)
Right.
Brenda Payne (18:55.041)
Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (18:55.807)
Right. It may not be his version of the ideal Proverbs thirty one woman who just serves him all the time.
Alex Kocher (19:00.119)
Right.
Leslie Vernick (19:02.643)
But she's to grow into a God-centered woman and be the woman that God designed her to be, not who her husband wants her to be. And that goes against some Christian teaching, at least old-fashioned Christian teaching, right? And so it's really important that she gets clear. He may not still be clear on that, but she needs to get clear that I am not violating God or disrespecting my husband for me to grow and mature, which is God's will for me.
Alex Kocher (19:09.569)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes.
Brenda Payne (19:14.882)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (19:25.729)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (19:28.97)
That's right. That's right. Hmm. That's so good. Well, one of the models that you talk a lot about is the core model. And I wanted you to explain that a little bit. I I use that a lot. I give that to a lot of women. And it's amazing once they get that concept and we say, let's sit down. And now as you begin to interact with your mother or your husband, whoever the person is, I really want you to act I want you to come back to this. Use this as your biblical thinking grid. Explain what that is. And
Just how you find that this is really useful for women in destructive relationships.
Leslie Vernick (20:03.616)
Well it's practically useful in this way. Sometimes when you're having a conversation with a destructive person, you get hooked into a very destructive dance. And that it can become so exasperating or so frustrating that you're not your best self in the moment either.
Alex Kocher (20:21.024)
right.
Leslie Vernick (20:21.595)
And that you can be provoked into doing things that later you feel ashamed of, or that you are accused yourself of being an abuser. Or you might do something in a moment of frustration, like push him away, and he gets to call the police on you. And we've had women in our group who have lost custody of their children because they were so provoked in a covert kind of way that they weren't able to manage their emotions in appropriate ways. And so they blew up in a moment and shoved their their
Brenda Payne (20:28.032)
Yeah.
Mm.
Brenda Payne (20:37.162)
Mm.
Mm.
Brenda Payne (20:44.386)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (20:51.509)
husband out of the way, but he was able to call 911 and get a restraining order on her for abusing him. So one of the consequences of our own reactivity to this kind of treatment is that we
Brenda Payne (20:52.951)
Mm.
Leslie Vernick (21:04.923)
may do things that later violate our own values of who we know we are and who God's called us to be. So core strength helps a woman reorient who am I and who do I want to be? And how do I want to mature into my most, we call it our noble self. You know, Ecclesiastes 7 has a really important verse that I just read for the first time. Didn't know it was there, but I've been reading through Ecclesiastes and it says God created people to be virtuous. But they
Brenda Payne (21:11.724)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (21:20.524)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (21:31.628)
Wow.
Brenda Payne (21:31.658)
Hmm. Love it. Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (21:33.939)
But they have each turned to follow their own downward path. And so if our design is to be image-bearers and that we are to reflect God's image, of course we're going to be virtuous. And then so Romans 12, 21 says, do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. So combining those two verses, the core is: see, I'm going to be courageously committed to truth. So now I cannot lie to myself.
Brenda Payne (21:37.122)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (21:37.419)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (21:58.465)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (21:58.732)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (21:59.004)
Or be lied to. I've got to open my eyes and face what is. I might not like what is. Just like if you have cancer, you don't like what is, but you still have to face it in order for you to make good decisions for yourself. So what is, what is true about me, what is true about go what's happening at home. I can't trust my husband, I don't feel safe with him. I've been complicit in, you know, enabling this because I've never spoken up or I've never said no, or I have said no, but I got scared. All of that self-awareness is really important.
Brenda Payne (22:04.524)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (22:08.022)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (22:08.449)
That's right.
Leslie Vernick (22:28.897)
important for her to grow. The next step is, how am I going to be open? And I think this is especially true maybe for the audience of biblical women who have been kind of in a a pretty conservative church, they don't really foster openness. Like they don't foster you to be curious about yourself and even curious about what else the scripture might say about certain things or curious about listening to people like Leslie Bernick who might say it little different. And so they get caught in this
Brenda Payne (22:48.799)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (22:51.658)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (22:54.433)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (22:57.895)
this room of stale air that only says it one way. And so being open to the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit has been given to us by Jesus saying that he will lead you in all truth. And so part of your work in maturing is to learn to discern
Brenda Payne (23:00.577)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (23:00.82)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (23:04.757)
Hmm. Yes.
Alex Kocher (23:14.636)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (23:17.471)
Yes.
Leslie Vernick (23:18.385)
what is true and what is not true. Even if someone from the pulpit is saying it, it still might not be true or it might not be fully true. And so this is part of your work to do and you need the openness of wise others and your own spirit to be able to start rearranging some of the things that you've believed or been taught are true, are not true. And then the next step is how am I going to be responsible for myself? Because we live in a culture of blame.
Alex Kocher (23:18.592)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (23:25.515)
Right.
Brenda Payne (23:38.07)
Yes.
Leslie Vernick (23:47.008)
And it's your fault I'm this way or it's your fault that I have, you know, and we can be provoked for sure, but in order for you to get stronger, you know, have to know how to deal with that. So even when I'm provoked, I'm responsible for how I respond. And learning to how to do that is so important because you want to be the virtuous one when he's poking at you or he's threatening you or he's doing something, you want it to be really clear. It's not me.
Alex Kocher (23:47.046)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (23:57.653)
That's right.
Leslie Vernick (24:16.135)
Because when you start getting into the mix of that in your own unhealthiness or your own stuff, then the counselor, the pastor gets really confused. And you're both wrong, you're both sinners, you both need what and so you want to keep your side of the street as clean as clear as possible. So take responsibility for what you need to work on, what you need to learn. And here's a great story. I was at a secular conference, not about this at all. It was about business. And but a woman asked me what I did, and I told her. And she said
Brenda Payne (24:23.455)
Yes Yes Yes
Leslie Vernick (24:45.967)
I was married to the worst narcissist, a sociopathic narcissist. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. And I'm like, tell me more. This is not a woman from the church. Tell me more. And she said, I was such a passive, people-pleasing, milk toast woman. I had to learn quick how to have boundaries, how to stand up for myself.
Brenda Payne (24:55.933)
Right. Hmm.
Alex Kocher (24:56.736)
Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (25:10.623)
how to, you know, not let him get under my skin so that our kids didn't think that I was the crazy one. And it was the best thing that ever happened to me because I grew so strong through that. My marriage failed, but I got.
So she saw it from that lens that this was used in a way that I would have never picked, but God used it to make me stronger. She wouldn't have used that word, but that's the word I would use. If we can look at it that way. So by taking responsibility for yourself, let me just cough for a minute.
Alex Kocher (25:27.98)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (25:37.311)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (25:37.792)
Right?
Brenda Payne (25:44.192)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (25:48.618)
By taking responsibility for yourself and committing to being respectful to others without dishonoring yourself, that's a balance beam that we need to learn to walk, and especially in this culture, because we have a lot of disrespect coming out of Christian people's mouth toward other people that we disagree with, and that's ungodly. And so Romans tells us do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. But what does good look like? It doesn't look like
Brenda Payne (26:01.525)
Oof.
Brenda Payne (26:14.709)
Right.
Alex Kocher (26:15.86)
Right.
Leslie Vernick (26:16.169)
pacifying the evil one. It looks like speaking the truth in love. And so how do we learn to do that? And how do we teach women to do that? And last, E, how do I be empathic? How do I
Brenda Payne (26:17.867)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (26:20.576)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (26:27.823)
Not demonize the other person that they're still an image bearer, they're still God's precious child. How do I speak the truth in love? How do I do what I need to do with boundaries with love? And love isn't enabling someone to sin, just like you wouldn't love your child if you said, sure, you can have your iPad all night. It doesn't matter if you go to school. That's not loving. That's unhealthy for your child. You would say, No, you can't do that, and that's love. And so sometimes we've, as women, been taught that love is
Brenda Payne (26:49.781)
Right.
Alex Kocher (26:53.258)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (26:57.697)
propping the sinner up. Instead, love really means speaking the truth in love and letting them fall down on their face so that maybe they learn.
Alex Kocher (27:06.328)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's so good. So I'm thinking of so many applications as you're talking Leslie, like this is so good for the woman in the destructive marriage, but it's so good in other destructive relationships and then just what you're saying in our Christian community as a whole, we need this message of core strength just to navigate all that we're up against and
Brenda Payne (27:06.761)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (27:27.968)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (27:33.974)
culture wars within our own Christian community, difficult conversations that we have to have. It's just such a great framework to return to again in the end to kind of orient us back very simply to a posture and a position we need to take when we have difficult discussions to have. So thank you for creating that.
Brenda Payne (27:53.45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so good. Well, many of our listeners are people helpers or wannabe people helpers. It's really mine and Alex's heart to equip.
Women in the church to walk alongside other women in sin and suffering situations. And we feel like the the church is uniquely designed and equipped and resourced to do that. So I want to turn our attention maybe a little bit toward people helpers. You've also often said that women experience what you call a second wound when they seek help from the church and some people don't know how to help them or they don't believe them. So maybe tell us a little bit about why this happened and what
What mistakes do people helpers make that that we can learn from so we don't make those same mistakes?
Leslie Vernick (28:42.707)
I think I mean we're not trauma-informed, and that's a secular word, so that creeps everybody out in the church sometimes to even talk about that. So we can talk about how do we learn to care well for people who are hurting. And one of the most important things is to believe them.
Alex Kocher (28:50.923)
You
Brenda Payne (28:56.661)
Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (29:04.083)
To believe them. I had a biblical counselor write into me about, you know, well, she was abused as a child, how do I know she's telling me the truth? And all kinds of stuff that just blocked his ability from really hearing her pain and her story. And so when we don't believe someone, and we're not the police and we're not the judge, we don't have to make sure every single fact is correct. She might have misquoted something or not said it exactly right. But what we're looking for is what has been the impact.
Brenda Payne (29:25.697)
Hm.
Leslie Vernick (29:34.099)
To this person. How have they been harmed? So if someone says, I've been hit by a bus, maybe it was a truck. But if her leg is broken and her spleen is injured, pay attention because those injuries are valid. And so how has she been impacted is really the important part of the story, and to care about that impact. And so I think that's the first thing. I think the second thing is that.
Alex Kocher (29:35.272)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (29:40.832)
Ha ha ha.
Brenda Payne (29:46.069)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (29:56.523)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (30:02.642)
lot of churches aren't doing this as much anymore, but a lot of the conservative ones still do, is that they value the sanctity of marriage, which I value, I've been married for fifty years, valuing the sanctity of marriage higher than the health and the sanctity and the sanity of the individuals in it. And if it's true that God calls us to mature.
Then not allowing the natural consequences that might enable someone to mature, like getting divorced, or like going to jail, or like having church discipline, not putting those consequences in place for grievous sin actually robs the person of the chance to mature, and we keep the institution in place. And Jesus was really clear about this. He said, you know, about the people who made the Sabbath such a legalistic institution that it wasn't refreshing and restful.
Alex Kocher (30:51.125)
Hmm.
Leslie Vernick (30:52.541)
Marriage is meant to be refreshing and and a partnership that's loving and mutual and trusting and safe, not oppressive and you feel like you're in jail and in prison and you have to totally disconnect from your body in order to make sure you filled your conjugal duties. That's not what God designed marriage for and not for women. Women's bodies are not homes for men's penises, like one person has said.
Alex Kocher (31:16.779)
Yes.
Leslie Vernick (31:17.831)
And so and so this is really important that the church values women and marriage, but not keeping the institution intact at the expense of the people in the institution, whether it's the church or the marriage. The institution may be corrupt and some of our churches are very corrupt.
Brenda Payne (31:19.073)
Terrible.
Leslie Vernick (31:41.255)
And so we're not protecting that under the guise of God cares about the church. Of course he cares about the church. And of course he cares about marriage. But if it's full of sin and corruption, then that's something that needs to be named and changed.
Alex Kocher (31:41.257)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (31:56.503)
I'm so glad that you mentioned you've been married 50 years. Brenda and I have been 32. Brenda's been married 35.
Brenda Payne (31:56.533)
Yeah, one of the No, go ahead. No, you go ahead.
Alex Kocher (32:09.353)
I think one of the charges that gets levied against us as we help women navigate this and even navigate separation and divorce is that we are anti-marriage. And here we sit, women who dearly love marriage, but certainly we recognize there are just times when separation and even divorce is necessary. So how do you help? Exactly.
Brenda Payne (32:22.792)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (32:28.178)
Yeah. It's because we have a high view of marriage. It's like it's exactly because we have such a high view and we know God has a high view of marriage as well and what happens in marriage. So it's the opposite of what the accusation is for sure.
Leslie Vernick (32:30.675)
Yes.
Alex Kocher (32:41.259)
True. So how do you help someone discern, Leslie, when separation may be necessary for safety or clarity or accountability?
Leslie Vernick (32:52.125)
Yeah, so I think all those reasons might necessitate a separation that I can't
Alex Kocher (32:56.597)
Mm.
Leslie Vernick (32:58.489)
I can't I'm not capable. And so so the woman who's taking vodka and Xanax, she's not at a place where she is strong enough to be in that relationship. She doesn't know how to say no yet, or she can't say no safely, right? So if she doesn't say yes to sex with Xanax and vodka, she's going to be sexually assaulted anyway. So she might as well just lubricate herself to do to be able to do her conjugal duty. If she's in that place, then maybe she needs to get strong enough to say, I I'm sorry, I can't.
Alex Kocher (33:19.157)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (33:28.353)
I can't live with you like this anymore. It's the impact to me is too toxic. And again, if we're only valuing the man's health and not the woman's health, which is often what happens. Well, he needs sex and he needs this and he needs that. If she lived in a home with toxic mold,
Alex Kocher (33:31.043)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (33:40.671)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (33:48.392)
And maybe she was being impacted in that her lungs were getting clogged and she was getting inside you know pneumonias and infection and her husband wasn't. What didn't bother him as much. And she said, I need these, these are part of boundaries. I need to take care of me. This is part of stewardship. I need to take care of me. I need to go to the doctor. I need to move out. I can't live in this home this way. It's unsafe for me. Well, it's not unsafe for me.
Alex Kocher (33:58.398)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:05.77)
Hmm.
Leslie Vernick (34:16.539)
Is she not allowed to be an adult woman and steward her one precious life and body? And if her life and body is being negatively impacted by an environment, wouldn't we hope that a loving husband would say, Of course, dear, we can move, we can get this remediated, whatever we need to do, but a destructive husband won't. He'll say, It's not bothering me. Because he's the only one that matters. She's there as an object to use, not a person to care about.
Alex Kocher (34:23.147)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:23.359)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (34:38.149)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:38.762)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:43.593)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (34:44.305)
So why would we reinforce his mindset that's destructive and the damage that's being done to her to keep the marriage together? And so she might have to separate for her safety, for her welfare, for her children's safety. I talk about a woman who we ended up having to go to church court for her because of the way her church handled it, but she separated because her doctor did an exam of all of the children for homeschool evaluations, and they all had high blood pressure, including the two-year-old.
Alex Kocher (34:48.245)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (34:51.999)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (34:57.877)
Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (35:14.105)
And then when he said, Let me take your blood pressure, hers was too high too. And so the doctor said, What's going on at home? Thankfully. And she was like in one of these very conservative PCA churches, and she said, I don't know. And he goes, Well, something's something's happening that everyone is stressed out. And that was her decision. I have to separate for the welfare of my children. And she got disciplined in her church for that.
Brenda Payne (35:19.892)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (35:33.128)
Hmm. Wow.
Mm, mm hmm.
Alex Kocher (35:39.21)
Yeah.
Ugh.
Brenda Payne (35:42.688)
goodness gracious.
Alex Kocher (35:43.742)
And you're even in your answer Leslie, you're given such great language to the fact that this argument that we can separate out physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse is really, it's really nullified, it's really voided with what we know about the body now, right? Like the body is affected because these are all embodied experiences. And so to talk about, if it's not physical abuse, then we don't need to separate is just an obsolete point anymore because the body.
Brenda Payne (35:54.272)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (36:05.684)
Mm mm.
Brenda Payne (36:10.88)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (36:13.725)
is always being affected by any of these forms of abuse.
Leslie Vernick (36:17.405)
Yeah, and
I have a great quote that I just heard. I don't know if I can pull it up right away while we talk, but I can read it but talk about how when you're living in a right in an environment with a lot of emotional dysregulation, it dysregulates you. And you are getting more and more unhealthy about that. And I think it's so important that we validate the right to self-stewardship of, hey, I am responsible. The Bible tells me to take good care of myself, my body. If I'm to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
Brenda Payne (36:30.238)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (36:33.78)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (36:40.128)
Mm.
Leslie Vernick (36:48.971)
Or if I'm to guard my heart above all else, who does that for me if I don't? Right? And so when we vilify women for saying, Hey, I can't live like this anymore, and tell them that they're weak or they're not trusting God, or they're it's like telling a woman in labor, you're a bad woman because you need medication. She didn't need medication. What's wrong with you? Nothing. Her body is different.
Alex Kocher (36:53.705)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (36:53.908)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (37:04.328)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (37:14.944)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (37:15.274)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (37:20.519)
And how would a pastor say about Proverbs, it's better to live in the corner of a rooftop than when it's an angry and contentious person? Obviously Proverbs was saying, it impacts you. It impacts you to live with this kind of person. Get out of there.
Alex Kocher (37:30.333)
Right. Yeah.
Brenda Payne (37:30.6)
Hm.
Brenda Payne (37:33.984)
Yeah. When the shoes on the other foot it becomes really clear. Yeah. well as far as reconciliation, when we look at people reconciling and and restoring relationships, what will you say are the marks of a healthy relationship?
Alex Kocher (37:34.73)
You're right.
Alex Kocher (37:40.363)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (37:56.702)
I think s several. So I wanna just say something that may be counter to a lot of beliefs that women have. It's not romantic love.
Alex Kocher (38:06.563)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (38:07.175)
It's not romantic love. Being married this long, you have it sometimes and you don't have it sometimes, right? You have it sometimes and you don't have it sometimes. And that's not any reason for ending the relationship, okay? So I think that the core ingredients for a lasting relationship is trust and safety. And I think it says that really clear in Proverbs where it says, He trusts her to do him good, not harm, all the days of his life. And I think that's the purpose of marriage. God has created
Brenda Payne (38:11.934)
That's right.
Alex Kocher (38:12.82)
That's right.
Alex Kocher (38:18.632)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (38:26.099)
Hmm.
Alex Kocher (38:36.074)
Hmm.
Leslie Vernick (38:37.109)
Marriage to be unique relationship where there is a family that can be raised in a safe environment where they're not all dysregulated and not living in a war zone, so that they can grow up to be healthy, mature individuals. And if you don't have trust and safety in a relationship, you might have other things. You might have money, you might have status, you might have great sex, you might have other things, but if you don't have trust and safety,
you can't have a safe, good marriage. Period. And your kids won't learn about how to do that in their lives as well. And so
Alex Kocher (39:07.944)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (39:08.266)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (39:13.895)
When you work on something to repair a relationship, that's what needs to be repaired. And so oftentimes churches are doing maintenance work. I talk about maintenance and repairs. So if you think about a house, maintenance, you take out the garbage, you wash the dishes, you wash the floor, you do your laundry, all that. That's important in a marriage. Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance. But when you neglect maintenance, or maybe you didn't neglect maintenance, but there's a a leaky pipe or a hole in the roof or termites in the basement.
Brenda Payne (39:19.112)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (39:28.213)
Mm.
Brenda Payne (39:40.672)
Mm.
Leslie Vernick (39:41.427)
When people go to counseling, especially biblical counseling, they're doing maintenance. you need to have more date nights. You need to have more sex. That's all maintenance work. That's not repair work. And so what is the repair work that needs to be done when trust and safety have been broken?
Brenda Payne (39:49.983)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (39:55.73)
Right.
Brenda Payne (39:57.909)
I said one of my favorite articles and and you have in several places we'll list it in our show notes is the one where you talk about the three ingredients of a healthy marriage, mutuality, reciprocity, and freedom. And that speaks to the trust and safety as well, just a little bit different language and that you use there. But I give that
Alex Kocher (40:06.867)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (40:12.606)
to a lot of women who who are struggling with like what does health look like? And I just find that really beautiful and helpful. Like what does a biblical marriage look like? And we want to s parse out roles instead of saying, it looks like this, it looks like these ingredients.
Leslie Vernick (40:24.852)
Yes.
And the the freedom to not do what you wanna do and say what you wanna say, but the freedom to be yourself. Like without being persecuted or
Alex Kocher (40:33.616)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (40:33.78)
Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (40:39.077)
demonized or villainized for being different than the other person. So for example, my husband and I don't share a lot of activities that we both enjoy. Now in our older age we've enjoyed playing Monopoly Deal. That's a card game that we play. And that we both enjoy that. But but he likes, you know, going to play volleyball or other kinds of things and I like art and, you know, and so he'll come to an art show with me or I'll go to a volleyball tournament with him. But we don't do that together. But the things that we do share are our values.
Alex Kocher (40:53.362)
Hahaha
Brenda Payne (40:53.376)
Nice
Brenda Payne (41:03.732)
Yeah.
Brenda Payne (41:09.233)
Mm-hmm. Amen.
Leslie Vernick (41:09.757)
Right. And I can totally be myself and he can totally be himself. And I can have dreams that God's called me to write a book and he'll say, How can I help you? Like, how can I take over the laundry or help with the kids? Or so we're supporting each other's personhood and growth. And that's what a healthy marriage looks like. It's not you're here for me, like my cell phone. I love my cellphone, but I don't really care about it. I can re easily replace it. It's an object. And I think women, especially in
Brenda Payne (41:19.392)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (41:19.626)
Hmm.
Brenda Payne (41:26.804)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (41:36.864)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (41:37.034)
Hmm.
Leslie Vernick (41:39.495)
the patriarchal mindset are more objectified and you're here to serve me. And that often has been the language that's been used in marriage counseling.
Brenda Payne (41:48.776)
Mm.
Alex Kocher (41:50.707)
Yeah. And it's not what we see Jesus do. Like over and over again. I think we, one of the things that this whole season has taught me is to take my eyes off the church and put my eyes back on Jesus because what we're, so many teachings we're seeing coming out of the church have been toxic and unhealthy for women. But when we go back to how Jesus treated women, we see
Brenda Payne (42:03.743)
That's right.
Alex Kocher (42:13.15)
this beautiful expression of him allowing them to be people. I love this picture that
We talk about Mary and Martha all the time and we need to learn to be a Mary. But what I love about that story is Jesus letting Martha be Martha. Like, He let her challenge Him. He lets her come and say, Lord, why are you letting Mary do this? He doesn't rebuke her for coming in and challenging Him. Like, He lets her be her. And I just think, again, the beauty of returning to how Jesus treats women, how He thinks about women.
And as image bearers, letting them be themselves is really what we have to return to as we're walking with women.
Brenda Payne (42:59.167)
Hm. Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (42:59.911)
And not just seeing women in the service of their family, but that they are a person who is mandated to also steward her one precious life. And that is not selfish. That is stewardship and good for her to do and good for her children to see her do.
Alex Kocher (43:03.987)
Right.
Brenda Payne (43:04.191)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (43:13.151)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Very good. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (43:16.841)
Hmm. Leslie, I'm goodness, we I'd love to talk so much more. I know we're gonna have to start winding down our time soon, but I just want to say that so much of what you do talk to and speak to into women has to do with identity and finding your voice, personhood, calling. And so again, we're just gonna tell people to go to your website, LeslieVernick.com, and just see all the wealth of resources that are there. But I'm thinking about the woman who's listening today, and we've said a lot.
Alex Kocher (43:37.626)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (43:46.031)
And maybe she is trying to discern, she she knows she's feeling the impact. She maybe can't make sense of everything. Maybe she's trapped, confused, exhausted. What what encouragement would you offer for that woman who's listening today?
Alex Kocher (43:51.518)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (44:00.522)
I would say that God's brought you here for a reason, and that you need to let go of a couple things in order for you to be able to do your own work. You need to let go of trying to change him or fix him or convince him. You need to let go of trying to be what he needs so that he'll love you. And you need to really focus right now on what do you need to do to get oriented from being a God, a husband-centered woman.
Alex Kocher (44:02.954)
you
Leslie Vernick (44:28.595)
To a God-centered woman and really begin talking that about that identity. How does God see me? Who am I, Lord? And what is my my value here? Because at that place, when you start to feel that from the Lord in your body, you can be the kind of biblical helpmate that you're really called to be, which is not an enabler of sin. It's a warrior woman who is the Ezer woman who can come alongside and say, Hey, I love you, but this porn.
Alex Kocher (44:50.858)
Mmm.
Brenda Payne (44:50.943)
That's right.
Leslie Vernick (44:57.873)
If you choose to continue this, then I can't align myself with you any longer. But you can't say that if you're still so dependent on him loving you or taking care of you. And so part of your work is to do your work to stand alone if you have to, so that you can love him well by speaking the truth in love, inviting him to also want to be his noble self.
Alex Kocher (45:03.167)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (45:08.788)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (45:14.738)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (45:22.056)
Hmm
Brenda Payne (45:23.003)
Yes. And I know you guys can say the same thing, but it's amazing how often when a woman does find her identity in Christ, understands her calling in Christ, finds her voice, her personhood, and begins to walk in that. Like husbands do respond to that. Some don't.
I understand that some never will, but there are many, many husbands. And my husband is an example. For seven years, my marriage was very unequal in that he was much more dominant. I was very passive and weak. And at the point, seven years in, that we were counseled, and I really learned, like, wow, I'm gonna have to change because I am the the people pleaser in this relationship. And he would tell you, I was selfish. I just thought, you know, hey, if she doesn't mind, I'll go do whatever. I'll go golfing every weekend if she doesn't care. And when I learned that and I began to talk with him and find
Leslie Vernick (45:44.052)
There are.
Brenda Payne (46:10.577)
just all the things you've said, that core strength, then God began to change. It was a catalyst for him to change. I didn't change him. I changed. It became a catalyst for his him to change. And 35 years later we have an incredible marriage. Not that, you know, not a perfect marriage, but a marriage where both people have grown and now there's so much beauty there.
Alex Kocher (46:23.624)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (46:23.901)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Right?
Alex Kocher (46:28.66)
Mm.
Leslie Vernick (46:29.319)
You helped him, and that was that that's our goal in marriage, is to help one another become a better version of ourselves. And I I c have to tell you, ladies, that
You know, doing this work for over fifty years as well, especially in the domestic abuse last twenty years, I've had men come up to me in s in situations where I didn't know whether they were there for, you know, a good thing or a bad thing. and so I was at a conference last year in Nashville and I was, you know, I didn't have my name tag or anything, I was walking through the hall and some very large man stopped me and he said, Are you Leslie Bernick? And I'm always like, Depends on who's asking. But I figured since I was a public place I could say
Alex Kocher (46:49.898)
You
Brenda Payne (47:01.022)
Ha ha.
Alex Kocher (47:04.464)
Hehehehehe
Brenda Payne (47:04.472)
Ha ha
Leslie Vernick (47:07.733)
Yes. And he said, he was he was actually a speaker at the conference that I was at. I was a speaker too, but I didn't hear him. And he was a speaker, he was a well-known person, and and he said to me, Thank you, because you helped my wife get strong enough to not put up with my crap. And as she not and sh as she got strong enough to not put up my c with my crap, I realized I was gonna lose her if I did get my act together.
Brenda Payne (47:25.267)
That's right. Amen.
Brenda Payne (47:34.559)
Mm.
Leslie Vernick (47:35.176)
And so thank you. And and I I have to say over the years I've had not a ton of men, but the men that have come up to me are either very, very angry or very, very grateful. and I think that that's really telling that as a woman does her work and doesn't let herself get caught into this
Brenda Payne (47:45.193)
Yeah. Hmm.
Alex Kocher (47:45.214)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (47:55.976)
I just have to give in, I just have to submit, I just have to die to myself, I just have to give up. That's not God's calling for you. God's calling for you is not retaliate, not to be return evil for evil either. So it's that fine line of how do I be the virtuous woman who speaks the truth in love with an invitation. You can change or not, that is your choice, but I won't live like this anymore. That's a powerful battle cry.
Brenda Payne (48:07.358)
Right.
Brenda Payne (48:15.273)
Yeah.
Alex Kocher (48:20.621)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (48:23.379)
But a woman can't make that until she's ready. And that's the work that we do as coaches and counselors to help her get ready.
Alex Kocher (48:25.684)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Well, Leslie, you've spoken so beautifully to these women and but thinking about the coaches, the counselors, the people who are walking alongside, you have had such longevity in really hard ministry, abuse and trauma counseling. There is a cost. My counselor told me like it's taking minutes off your life every time you're interacting with these difficult cases.
So just speak to those who are helpers. How have you sustained so long in this difficult ministry?
Leslie Vernick (49:06.451)
Really good question. I'm not on social media personally. I don't do it. I don't read my like
Alex Kocher (49:10.409)
Mmm.
Leslie Vernick (49:14.181)
my staff reads things if I need to respond I will but I don't read it because I don't want to get worked up over she's taking women off the deep pen biblically or whatever. You know, I've been there, done that. I d I don't need to hear that anymore. I feel at peace with what I say and I've done my work with God and I I I'm I'm good with that. So I I limit the amount of time I spend on social media. I
Alex Kocher (49:19.454)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (49:23.764)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (49:36.094)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (49:38.522)
Always hold my ministry with open arms. So God, I'm here to do it as long as you want me to do it. And anytime you want me to be move aside, I'm okay with that. So that I don't cling to, you know, having to have people like me, your good reputation, all those kind of things. I'm good with that. And then I walk five miles every morning. so that I'm in nature, I'm outside, I'm
Alex Kocher (49:56.233)
Yes.
Brenda Payne (49:56.903)
Wow.
Leslie Vernick (50:00.646)
talking to the trees, I'm talking to the birds, I'm moving my body, I create beauty, I'm, you know, painting and I'm curious. And so I think this is if I could say one thing that I think has really damaged our both intellect and our skill set and our creativity is that we have not encouraged people in the biblical counseling movement to be curious.
Brenda Payne (50:01.096)
Moving.
Alex Kocher (50:25.363)
Yes.
Leslie Vernick (50:25.427)
That we've encouraged them to be afraid. Like, don't listen to this person, and don't listen to this person, and don't and I and I have listened to all kinds of people: Catholics, Buddhists, all kinds of people, because I'm just a curious person. I want to know why do you think the way you think? So I listen to the Republicans and I listen to Democrats, I watch Fox News and I watch BN B C D C and all of the others, just to see what people are saying. And so I think curiosity about
life and about gives you an openness to say, what else, Lord? What truth am I missing? What am I not seeing? When we're so sure we know everything and all of our dots, our I's are dotted and our T's are crossed in a certain way, we're not open to learning and to growing and that will hurt us in the long run. So as counselors, really do that. Yeah.
Alex Kocher (50:51.529)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (50:56.479)
Hm.
Alex Kocher (51:08.617)
I think a lot of people think I have to know what I believe, I have to stand really strong in it, that's the only way I can sustain in this ministry. Instead of what you're saying is open yourself up to different viewpoints, keep talking, keep thinking, keep growing, that's actually the way to sustain yourself in ministry because it's going to keep you humble.
nothing else, right? And puts you in a great posture before the Lord of learning more from him, learning more from his spirit and his word and learning more about people. I think that's beautiful.
Brenda Payne (51:39.465)
Mm-hmm. That's right.
Brenda Payne (51:50.163)
Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (51:52.21)
Even with women who are talking to their husbands, I think if they can be curious and say, Why is it that you think it's okay for you to treat me this way when you would not want me to treat you this way? If we can ask people some curious questions and invite them to reflect or asking a pastor, you know, I had a conversation with one of John Piper's pastors because they were
Alex Kocher (52:01.663)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (52:02.559)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (52:17.691)
saying women couldn't leave, you know, that they were making that statement, you can't leave, you can't leave and I said, So let me ask you a question. So if they follow your advice and their husband takes all their retirement money, 'cause she separate they can separate, but they can't divorce. If sh they take all the money and he blows it on a prostitute or puts it in a Cayman Island account and so now she's sixty and she has no medical insurance and she has no retirement to live off of 'cause her she separated but she didn't divorce, so she has no legal protection.
And he's taking all this money. Are you gonna pay her bills? Like, are you going to step in and pay her health insurance, pay her for retirement, give her an apartment? Because you've told her to do this. And she's believed that you had and of course not. Of course not. Right? And so this is where I think women have to begin to recognize that God has given them a chooser. All of us get one.
Alex Kocher (52:50.792)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (53:05.958)
Right. Right.
Brenda Payne (53:17.118)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie Vernick (53:17.629)
All of us get one. And just because a strong leader tells us that this is the way walking it doesn't mean it's the right way. And that we have to be curious enough and informed enough to decide for ourselves because we're the one who's gonna pay the price.
Alex Kocher (53:25.373)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (53:31.965)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (53:33.756)
Yeah, and I'll have to say my own journey coming from a very legalistic background to a more curious stance, which I have found puts me in more of a posture of love and grace. that really and truly my view of God, that He is He is kinder and more patient and more loving and more gracious, and all the things that I ever, ever imagined, and He would have to be in order to put up with me for until I get to heaven. but there's there's such a tenderness and such a sweetness. And I think again, that idea that fear always shrinks.
Alex Kocher (53:42.451)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (53:48.467)
Mm-hmm.
Leslie Vernick (53:55.379)
Yes, he would. He would. Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (54:03.653)
Love, right? And so the more fearful we become, the smaller our capacity to love. Whereas if we open up and we can trust God and move toward people, move toward people, move toward God, then our love grows. And not only is that humility shape our relationship with the Lord, but it may but it but it helps us walk with people and helps them, I think, see Jesus and you know, to see him as he truly is. And so, yeah, there's there's so much for us to
Learn. There's so much for for I know the three of us would say there's still so much for us to learn. And and that's one thing about our podcast. I will say, sometimes, you know, we we bring on people we know that not everybody's gonna agree with, but that is part of even our challenge to say, let's listen to what other godly people are saying. I was told people in certain camps were bad, they're all bad if they have this, you know, particular belief system. And then I started meeting people and interacting with people in those camps, and they love Jesus so much.
Alex Kocher (54:57.123)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Kocher (55:02.695)
Yeah
Brenda Payne (55:03.466)
Sometimes they seem like they love Jesus more over here than they do in my camp over here. So you know, I think just that asking the Holy Spirit to, particularly on the secondary issues, like to hold things loosely and to look at the heart of God. I think that's where we get so anyway, I could go on a whole thing and so could we all. But Leslie, this has been an absolute delight to have you on our podcast. Really, I I
I feel like we have to pinch ourselves and go, We can't believe Leslie came. She's our mentor and our friend. Yeah, thank you so much. And we're going to put up your like we said, your website is a gold mine of information. We're gonna put up all the things we know that you have
Alex Kocher (55:32.898)
Hehehehehe. Hehehehehe.
Leslie Vernick (55:33.549)
well I'm so glad to meet each of you.
Brenda Payne (55:45.69)
All kinds of resources, articles, and podcasts and books. You have groups for women. You have classes online that women can join and take part of. You have Facebook groups they can be a part of. And so I would just say if you are a woman out there and you're not you're not even sure if you're in an emotionally destructive relationship, but you're feeling some of the impact. The Holy Spirit has touched you through this podcast and something is resonating with you. Be curious. Just get on Leslie's. And you might see, like, no, I mean, you might listen to your one video.
Alex Kocher (56:09.651)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Payne (56:15.784)
on disappointing and destructive. Disappointing? What are they? Difficult. Yeah, yeah. And you might get on there and go, okay, I'm kind of in the rain range of something a little bit more normal. And so that would be beautiful too. We would love that. But
Leslie Vernick (56:20.287)
Difficult and destructive relationships, yeah.
Alex Kocher (56:21.019)
VFK.
Leslie Vernick (56:28.125)
Right.
Brenda Payne (56:30.162)
We just thank you. Thank you for your legacy. Thank you for running the race ahead of where Alex and I are. We're, you know, just a little bit behind you, but watching you is so encouraging to say we want to follow. You've you've paved the way. We want to be those women behind you that will say, thank you for paving the way because we are right here. We're gonna keep we're gonna keep running the race and we're gonna keep passing the torch to the women behind us, we pray as well. So thank you.
Alex Kocher (56:51.667)
Hmm.
Leslie Vernick (56:51.753)
Good, good. Well thank you. Thank you for sharing that and and that's encouraging to me as well. So thank you.