Season 11 Ep.4 / Lectio Divina

Alex (00:07.374)

If you're someone who likes repetition, if you like scripture, praying scripture as a form of prayer, I think you'll really like the Lectio Divina.

Alex (00:24.078)

Welcome Conversational Counseling, where Counseling and Discipleship meet. I'm Alex Coker. My friend Brenda Payne and I have over 30 years of counseling experience. We are here to equip you with tools and frameworks for comfort and change to use in your own life and as you walk with others.

Alex (00:54.122)

Okay, we're in season 11. It's hard to say that still. Exciting. We're talking about our sacred access in prayer. And today we're going to talk about a form of prayer that is a little bit different than maybe something you've experienced before. It's a prayer that's guided through scripture. It's a prayer where we interact with what the Holy Spirit is speaking to us.

through a repetition of the same passage of scripture. So if you're someone who likes repetition, if you like scripture, praying scripture as a form of prayer, or if you just like a two for one, write your scripture together. Like I think you'll really like the Lectio Divina.

Right?

Brenda (01:42.264)

Well, Well, Lectio Divina actually means divine reading. Yes. And of course, I love this part. It has its roots in Jewish tradition because I've been all about all the things there in the last few years. And it's a meditative scripture reading that was actually originated in the early centuries of the church. And the form of structure really took shape in monastic settings. So if you are from a

monastic tradition or I would guess I would say more of a, what's the word I'm looking for? tradition. Yeah, thank you, an Orthodox tradition. Then this might be familiar to you. If you are not, then it may not be familiar and even the name may seem odd to you as well.

the doctor.

Alex (02:28.184)

So Brenda, do you have any personal experience with Lectio Divina?

You know, this is probably the one that I do the least. I have done it some, and so I'm actually excited for this particular podcast because I think it's going to reengage me with this one. This is one of the prayers I also did with a local ministry that teaches some of these spiritual formation practices. And I don't know why. I kind of walked away with some of the others, examined some of the other prayer tools, and I'm going to put this one, I'm going to sharpen this tool.

and we'll put it back in my toolbox and start pulling it back out. But I know you've got some experience with it.

Well, this is what I use every day. And I've mentioned the Lectio 365 app, which is done by an organization called Prayer 24-7. It's an international organization. And I love that about it. And they do a guided Lectio Divina every morning. You can read it or you can listen to it. It's got quiet music.

I did it this morning here at your house. With my heavens in on the floor, I stretch and I listen to the Lactea Divina. And I really do love this form of prayer. I call the Lactea Divina for me with the app, My Bread and Butter. Like I'm do that every day no matter what. And then my other study or reading or prayer kind of comes in.

Alex (03:43.98)

based on how much time and head space I have in that day. But this is what I return to every day and it helps that it's right there on my phone. It's ready to go every morning. And I've given it to so many people and gotten great feedback that people love it.

One of the things I do love about the app is this international sense of hearing different accents and men and women from around the world. That was one thing that was really cool. It's such a reminder that we are a part of a bigger church than our local congregation or the American church. Like to be able to hear people from all over the world come and contribute. I just think on one hand makes me excited to be a part of something so big and then also makes me realize like how small I am.

Yeah

Right? Which is, need both. I need this vision of grandeur that this is a big kingdom and there people all over the world worshipping Jesus, but also kind of that smallness that you feel when you see something so great that keeps you humble and surrendered.

Yeah, it's a really well done app and I do highly recommend it. And now they've added a noon lectio and then they do their evening exam and so you can kind of, you can have your prayer structure through the whole day. So one thing about Lectio Divina, we're introducing it as a form of prayer. It could also easily be seen as a form of scripture reading because it does blend both and it's the idea that we're not reading the scripture just for information or knowledge.

Brenda (04:45.577)

I need to get back in.

Alex (05:11.894)

we are entering into the scripture, I would say almost like as an experience of relationship, of transformation. So again, we're sitting with the scripture, we're listening to it, read multiple times. Some people use the same translation every time. Some people like to do it like Dio Divina and do the same passage in different...

I like to do. feel like you get something a little bit different. For me, something else gets drawn out of the passage when I read it in some different translations.

And you're listening to how's the Holy Spirit speaking to you through the passage? What does God want to say to you? How can that scripture guide what I want to say back to God? So it's using the scripture as almost a prompt for a conversation. And I think it's particularly helpful with passages of scripture that become really familiar to us and using these prompts.

to hear it differently, to think about it a little bit differently.

I think one of the other uses that I really like is, you know, wherever you are in the Scriptures is where you are in life. And sometimes we approach the Scriptures a little bit more academically or more like systematic theologians, like, I'm trying to figure out what to do. What does the Bible have to say about loving my enemies? And that's a great way, right? Like, you could go through the Scriptures and pull the passages and pray. But I feel like this is like so personal that I might be struggling with how to love my enemy and maybe

Brenda (06:40.674)

this particular verse isn't part of like the index of Scripture about how to your enemy. It's some other Scripture, but God is using it to shape my thinking or my beliefs or my actions or my desires. So I think in that sense, it really, I think, makes the Scriptures come alive more personally and more experientially than maybe the little bit more academic or theological approach of that idea of like, well, what does the Scripture say as a whole?

This is very personal, what is the scripture saying to me today, specifically in this passage.

Right. And my first experience with Lectio Divina was actually at a retreat, a small retreat with women where we were actually learning the grand narrative. And one morning they said, we're going to do Electio Divina. And my ears perked up because I was like, I don't even know what that is. And it's Latin.

That sounds smart. I want to learn that.

sounds smart. And she did Ephesians 1, and she did it reading the same passage in different translations, if I remember correctly. But I'm going to read a couple of verses from Ephesians 1. She did Paul's prayer for the church in Ephesians 1. I have not, for this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God's people,

Alex (08:02.87)

I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation so that you may know Him better." Paul keeps going on with this beautiful prayer. I'm very familiar with the prayer. I think I prayed it in my prayer last many years for my church. And at the second reading,

it hit me like in my chest that Paul was praying that for me. Like I had prayed it for my church for many years and it hit me that when he was praying for all God's people and all the saints and he was asking for these things that Paul, an apostle of Jesus was praying for me. And I was sold on like Dia Divina. Right, because I mean, it moved me to tears to think that like,

Hmm.

Brenda (08:50.474)

mm.

Alex (08:58.863)

one, how we're connected through the ages to all believers, and that Paul did not have me in his mind, but Jesus did.

Yeah, that's so great. I even think about knowing the story of the past few years, even with the church hurt, right? That this was just so personal for you, that as a member of God's church, that the Apostle Paul was praying for you then for what's happening now. And I think so much of what Lectio Divina does is it really provides an opportunity to slow down. Yes. A lot of times, my...

Scripture reading can be a little bit like my personality, a little frenetic, right? It's like, oh, I've got to read all this and read all this, and now I need to read the commentary and now I need to write. And so I think it is, and actually as I'm sitting here thinking, it might be why in some ways I'm not as drawn to it because it is so slow and it's so intentional and it's really not a lot about writing. It's more just about thinking, praying and meditating and hearing from the Holy Spirit. So...

Yeah, I'm really being encouraged to think I need to move in this direction more. But I think once we slow down and we take less scripture, fewer words, I go back to my life coach saying, you need fewer people, fewer words and fewer ideas. This would be a great way to say you don't have to read a whole chapter or two chapters and do a whole Bible study. Just take a passage. And it is interesting, this is why God's Word is living and active because

You read that years, for years, and it meant something else, and it was profitable in its meaning and in its prayer. But then all of a sudden, you're at a different place in life. You've had a different experience with people and with yourself and with life in general. And now God highlights. The Holy Spirit comes and says, because I know personally you need this encouragement, Alex, I want to highlight something you haven't seen that meets you where you are today. And I think that's just a beautiful part of this prayer model.

Alex (10:55.118)

And I will say, I am a very visual person. Like I learned visually, I create visuals to help me learn. There has been something for me about hearing the scripture. I don't know what it is yet. I don't even know if I can put it into words, but I think one part of it is moving me away from reading the scripture for knowledge and hearing becomes more experiential for me because a lot of times,

I can't hold it all in my brain because I am so visual. Auditorially, I can't hold it all. I can't analyze. I can't synthesize. I can't do all these things I do when I'm studying. So hearing causes me to have to just take a deep breath and just like, what is the spirit going to even cause my brain to be able to latch on to? And it's kind of like take a deep breath and just.

just let go instead of the intensity that I come to when I read scripture and I feel like I need to know what that word means and I need to understand these connections. I have to let go of all that. And so that is one reason why I enjoy the app. I think that you could have that same experience with an audio Bible. You don't need that app. But there has been something for me about listening to it and not reading it.

agree. And I think that God's given us all these senses to experience Him, and all of us do have. Like, I'm definitely more auditory, which is interesting because most of my Bible study is in the visual. writing and I'm reading. But I do listen to a lot of sermons and podcasts and teaching. I mean, I definitely take in a lot of information. But I think just as a practice, I tend to read and write more than listen. So, that's just a good reminder for me.

to, especially being that is a way that God really does, a way I really learn and God speaks to me is because I am auditory. I don't know, I just feel like the Holy Spirit even now is nudging me to say, like, come back. Well, there's four basic movements in this prayer, and what we want to do now is just go through each one and explain a little bit. We will provide some worksheets and examples and all of that on the website as well and wherever you're finding this recording.

Alex (12:53.836)

to it.

Brenda (13:09.514)

So the four movements are read, reflect, respond, and then rest. And we're going to introduce the Latin terms for each of these because some people know these by their Latin terms. And plus, if you know these, you'll sound really smart when you talk to other people about your prayer practice. You'll sound very spiritual, very educated in Latin. This is the extent of my Latin knowledge is right here.

So the first one is read and that is the lectio part. So you read the passage at least two times and again, you could do it more if you wanted. Slowly, carefully, would say thoughtfully, meditatively. And again, you could do one translation or you could change up translations. And you're going to ask yourself, you know, kind of in this big picture sense of what is this passage saying to me? What sticks out to me? I like to say, what is the Holy Spirit highlighting for me? And then you want to just listen.

which again, we've talked a little bit about listening and how hard, like, prayer is a conversation of talking and listening to God. And sometimes we're so busy talking to Him, we just don't stop to listen. So we want to have that listening peace, listening for that still small voice of the Holy Spirit. And then, you know, allowing ourselves to interact, or allowing the Scripture, kind of like letting the Scripture read you. You're not just reading the Scripture or hearing the Scripture, it's reading you now and you're interacting or it's interacting with your personal experiences.

and thinking of the past and the present and maybe even your future, like your perceived future.

And I want to say, because we're reading the scripture many times, three, four times, I want people to not get too hung up on in the first reading, what is the scripture saying to me? Because I think what we actually need to do in the first read through is relax. I mean, I think it's good to like,

Alex (15:07.894)

is the Holy Spirit saying something, but I think sometimes we try to make that happen. what, what I remember the first time I did it, like what part am I supposed to be focused on? What about, and I think it's why it wasn't until the second time where I just took a deep breath and be like, okay, I'm just going to see what happens.

You're really gonna let the Holy Spirit lead instead of you trying to lead it.

Yes, and I was trying to make it happen. I was trying to think about words and I was trying to like, and I distinctly remember going, this is not going to work. I can feel my analytics. can, and like what I had to do in the first reading was just breathe and just let the words wash over me because the second step is reflect the meditation. And it's going to, the question is going to be asked again, what stands out to you, but also be prompted more like what emotions come, what ideas or words come to you.

What feels like God is highlighting or speaking to me here? What might God want me to do? Or how am I instantly just reacting to this passage overall? And I think that's helpful because we're not trying to create a response. We're just trying to see like, what's happening when I hear this? bring awareness.

Okay, the next one is respond, which is the oratio. And now this is literally where you're just going to respond to God based on your meditation. And I know you said that it's not your practice to necessarily journal because you're stretching and you're, you know, being quiet and still with the Lord. For me, again, I'm just such a words person and I love writing. I do find that I will like give the response.

Brenda (16:42.838)

And that response might be different. It could be any forms of the prayer that we've talked about. It could be a repents its prayer. It could be some sort of lament. It could be, you know, just praising and thanking God. It could be whatever is the need of the moment and how the Holy Spirit is then moving me to respond. I think it's interesting too, though, that in really considering a response, we're not just allowing, again, the Scriptures to be an academic pursuit or something we check off, like waiting on the Lord.

to speak to you through the scripture and then having some sort of response, even if it's just like, thank you, Jesus, for your word. Thank you for this morning to be able to wake up and to come be with you. It is asking you for a response, which I think is really beautiful.

And then the last step is rest or contemplatio, where we just enjoy God. We're just quiet, listening again for God's response. And a lot of people want to think then about, how does this move beyond me? And how does it move into my community and in the world beyond me? And I think those are sweet questions that tie us to the church, universal.

I also want to mention, like, these four steps, because I am plugging Lectio 365 so much, people, again, do Lectio Divina differently. These are the classic four steps of Lectio Divina, but you'll hear people change the terminology, change the prompts, and in the Lectio app, they're going to guide you a little bit more than this. So they're going to guide you according to the passage.

So you might hear the scripture and your mind goes here and they might take you somewhere different. And for that reason, the map might not be for all people. But I think what it does do if you're new to Lectio Divina is it shows you a model and it kind of gives you an example of what could happen in the experience of Lectio Divina. So again, if you're nervous to try it, it's a good place to start because it's like training wheels for Lectio Divina.

Brenda (18:56.366)

I think that's really a great suggestion. I will say, just noticing different personality styles and different seasons and needs, like this is something that's your bread and butter, you do every day. I think part of the reason I'm remembering now why I stopped it, and that is because for me, it got boring. And, is that bad to say? Just being honest, it got boring. And then what was happening is I wasn't listening anymore. I would just, my mind would start wandering off. But what I am realizing,

As we're talking about this, I'm doing a one year through the Torah. And so just the first five books of the Bible this year. And the Holy Spirit is often highlighting, basically it's like one chapter of those books every day or five days a week. And I'm realizing that as God highlights one of those, this would be really great to take that highlighted verse and then really use this. Again, I have to do it every day, but know that this is again a tool that I could take that Bible study into prayer using this. And I think for me,

that would probably work better than listening to the Lectio Divina. So I think it's interesting, I don't know, maybe part of my personality too is just I like different, different, different and I think a lot of change keeps me kind of like going.

Well, it's funny you say that because that's my experience with the pause app. I love what he's doing with the pause app, but I couldn't stay with it. And you know what I realized? I was listening to the pause app sitting in a chair and not moving. I can do it if I can move. If I have to sit still and just listen, I don't know. Something in me just.

No.

Brenda (20:22.412)

Yeah, that makes sense.

Brenda (20:29.418)

Maybe it's just more distracting. me, get so distracted. I think this brings another point we really haven't talked about, so we won't go too far, but just the posture of praying. I think we can come back to that, but I think we even have an idea of what posture we should be in. And I mean, you've said, I'm stretching and praying. And I wonder how many people are like, how do you do that? Is that even prayer? Is that allowed? Will God really be listening? I don't know. Does he care? But we can talk more about that, but I'm glad that you brought that up.

Yeah, yeah.

Alex (20:58.902)

Yeah, so not only are there different prayer tools, we can use their different prayer literal physical postures and circumstances we can use them in. Yeah. Well, we just fill in the toolbox this season in lots of different ways. And so we want to hear from you of what tools you're finding helpful. Do you have other tools?

Yeah, love to hear what other people are using and finding helpful. That'd be great. Okay, well, I think that that's going to do it for the Lectio Divina for today, and we're going to be back the next session to explore another sacred access to the Father. and I did want to say we will have, again, another prayer, an example, and that'll be, I hope, helpful. We'll have the handouts for this form of prayer.

We'll have the example of the person who's coming to read for us. And it is really neat to see, as I'm just sitting here thinking, like, just the variety of personalities. Like, God didn't just say, this is the only way you can talk to me. This is the only way you can interact with me. And again, I go back to my personal relationships with people, and I think I don't always just interact with you a certain way. We laugh together. We cry together.

Sometimes we walk and talk. Sometimes we have coffee. Sometimes we're on Zoom. Sometimes we're just praying and thinking about each other. There's all these different ways that you and I can have connectivity. And so, just the creativity of God in him knowing we're different and knowing that there's different ways in engaging all of our senses and all of our seasons, that he just provides all of these different ways. And I would just have to say, because it is just so much the heart of God.

to make access and to invite us in to be with Him. And so I'm just realizing like, wow, Lord, the beauty of all the ways that you've created this, all the creativity, it's all because you have this incredible desire to commune with us, to have companionship with us, and to be with us.

Prayer (22:58.646)

I'm reading Psalm 23 in the ESV and the NIV. Reflect. I am like a sheep being led to you, the good shepherd Jesus. You lead me into safety and give me what I need. Pasture, water, provision, rest. You lead me through scary places but also right paths. I don't have to be afraid because you have a rod and a staff to comfort me.

I follow you, but you pursue me too with goodness and mercy. I will always be with you. Respond. You are my shepherd, Jesus. I shall not want. I am in a season of a lot of wants. Financially, priorities, divided attentions, old wants for security and safety as I fight against old wounds being reopened. You are my Abba. You know all of these things.

I pray to live from a deep core of safety and not fear. I hear you say, Holy Spirit, I am healing your deep core. I have led you to green pastures and still waters in this place. You can lie down and rest. I am close by. You restore my soul. I feel healing taking place as I let out a deep sigh. I close my eyes, Jesus, as I receive your promise. I look outside and see the green pasture you have provided.

I receive your love for me, Father. I take in the silence of this moment. I receive your safety, Holy Spirit. Rest. Jesus, you are my good shepherd. I am so thankful to be in your flock. Thank you for guiding me gently, holding me when I was broken, correcting me when I was off the right path. You flood my heart with assurance of your mercy and goodness. You meet me where I am and you are kind. You hold me fast.

I love you Jesus, you are my greatest treasure.