Season 10 Ep.7 / You Have to Believe What I Believe!
Alex (00:04.113)
Well, Brenda, we're in our season called Do As I Say, Not As I Do. And this may, this episode may seem like we're contradicting ourselves with other episodes that we have. In the previous episode, we said, oh, how did we say it? I don't.
Brenda (00:14.282)
Right.
Brenda (00:23.916)
How did we? Don't tell me what to believe or, or, uh-huh, something like that.
Alex (00:27.653)
Don't tell me what to believe. And now we're saying, you have to believe what I believe. But we're looking at the issue of when we get stuck on our own denominational preferences, creeds or traditions, we're calling that dogma, where we get dogmatic. so we do that more than we focus on love and shared biblical truth. And we begin to...
really impose our beliefs on other people. So we're saying you have to believe what I believe is what we don't want to do because we all do hold our own beliefs very dearly. We've often had to wrestle for many years with the scriptures and in relationship to arrive at these places that we believe in.
We want to make sure though that on places that aren't essential to scripture, particularly, we're not imposing those beliefs on other people. So of course, doctrine and theology matter. Creeds and confessions are things that people have literally died for. But when they overshadow love and relationships, that counseling can really become cold and clinical and even divisive and harmful. So...
What we want to talk about today is how do we strike this balance where we hold theology well and recognize its importance but we don't insist that people agree with us on matters of doctrine in order to stay in relationship with them.
Brenda (01:57.102)
Right. And I think we have to recognize that we all come to the scriptures with a biblical lens or with a lens for interpreting scripture. And it really is shaded or colored by our church background, our denominational preference, whatever organizations that we hold to their teachings or have been trained by or universities, and even just the individual teachers that we follow. And that's not all bad. Like we can see the church.
Alex (02:07.4)
huh.
Alex (02:11.94)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (02:23.652)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:27.056)
step outside of our quote unquote tribe, if you will, and realize like the church is so big and God is doing so much and you know that it's not all bad that if some churches have a liturgy and ritual and some churches have none, some churches have a very distinct theological language and another doesn't even know that language, right? I know in my own journey, I came out of a denominational church with a lot of dogma. I mean, basically where there wasn't a lot of room to question.
Alex (02:40.728)
Right?
Alex (02:52.815)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:56.986)
what was being taught. And now I've swung the pendulum to the other side where I'm in a non-denominational church where sometimes it even feels a little too loosey goosey about wait, what's happening here? And you have to adjust your counsel. But I would also say is if you if your beliefs have not changed on anything in the last five, 10, 15, 20 years, you might want to examine that as well. Like maybe you've just really gotten into some pretty dogmatic thinking.
Alex (03:21.498)
Yeah.
Brenda (03:26.906)
the bottom line is we change. change. The scripture doesn't change, but we change. Our understanding of truth changes. And I know for me over the last decade, I've really begun to study the Bible from a distinctively Jewish perspective. I know it comes out. That can be scary in its own way for certain people. But it's really changed my understanding and given me a greater worship of who God is, a greater understanding of who God is. It's increased my worship.
Alex (03:34.479)
Hmm.
Alex (03:40.719)
Hmm.
Brenda (03:56.788)
is changing as I'm studying from a different perspective or outside of what I normally be going to find extra biblical material to understand the scriptures but I think it's put God's genius more fully on display.
Alex (04:08.782)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (04:13.39)
And there's just there's so much richness, I think, when particularly we can add humility to recognize that my church and all the beliefs I hold dear to me may not always be the only way to see it or the exclusive way to see it. And I think as I've gotten older in my faith and older, just more experiences walking with people, I've just really wanted to understand and seek the character and heart of
Alex (04:29.06)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (04:43.184)
God and leave more room for the Holy Spirit as well.
Alex (04:43.941)
Mm-hmm.
And I think the other thing we're recognizing when we say that people don't have to believe what we believe is that we're recognizing what you said that this spiritual life and this process of sanctification is a journey and we're changing, not just hopefully in our behaviors, but also in our ways of thinking. And we can't always move people down the road where we think they need to be. Like that's a work of the Holy Spirit and His timing. And there are things that people
probably told us 10 or 15 years ago that we did not get and we could not see it, we could not understand it and the Holy Spirit had to take us there and bring us to that understanding and we've got to trust the Holy Spirit in other people's lives to do the same thing that people don't have to be where we are.
Brenda (05:21.645)
Right.
Brenda (05:27.502)
That's right.
Brenda (05:36.782)
you
Yeah, and I think, and this was, I would say, true of me in a season. I think the danger is when our primary focus in counseling can become doctrinal precision instead of shepherding a soul. Like there's the grid we're going through is more about what our doctrine says than the person's in front of me and really trying to connect the two and understand. And so we just want to talk about some of the dangers and consequences of a dogma driven counseling. And the first one is we may misunderstand the person's struggle, right?
Alex (05:48.02)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (05:53.219)
Yeah.
Alex (06:07.119)
Yeah.
Brenda (06:07.268)
If we filter everything through our tradition, we could even misdiagnose like, what's the real issue here? What's the real problem? So a person wrestling with doubt, for example, may not need a theological lecture on election, if you ascribe to that doctrine, but instead, you know, compassionate engagement with their fears. And that just, that sets the whole tone of the conversation in such a different direction.
Alex (06:12.824)
Hmm.
Alex (06:28.528)
Mm.
Alex (06:35.0)
yeah, because I think that the other danger we can add to that is that if we jump in with theology before we really listen, we're often going to shut down the conversation. The person's going to feel unheard and pressured and they're going to not feel like we have shepherded them. They're going to feel like they have to conform rather than be shepherded. And I think some of these doctrinal elections are great. Another one I've caught myself where people say something and I want to jump in and say,
believe in the sovereignty of God that he's powerful enough to do and I've stopped myself and let the person continue to process and oftentimes that's not the problem at all. They do believe in the sovereignty of God. Just the sovereignty of God's hard sometimes.
Brenda (07:07.246)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (07:15.95)
Right. That's right. Yes, thank you for that. Well, I think another kind of harm we can do if we...
don't, if we're not aware of our own dogma is we can minimize personal and cultural differences. And we need to remember that everybody's coming from some sort of tradition, even if it's a non tradition. I kind of laugh about non denominational churches because they have their own traditions and they have their own dogma, right as well. Sounds so good, but I'm realizing, no, there's actually a lot there. And, you know, if we assume our framework is the only valid one, then we really risk overlooking how someone's background has shaped their journey and their
Alex (07:34.191)
Yeah.
Alex (07:39.056)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.
Alex (07:47.748)
Yes.
Alex (07:57.455)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (07:58.514)
faith and so we need to be sensitive as we're going in to realize I think we can almost go in with the mindset of the way I see things is the way you're going to see things about the church, about doctrine, about scripture, but that's just not true.
Alex (08:13.74)
Right? Yeah, that's a great point. think one of the other dangers or consequences of this belief is that we might unintentionally impose extra biblical expectations on someone and burden their conscience rather than freeing them just to walk in the grace of God. so
We feel strongly about something and then we expect them to act in the same way or in the same things we feel strongly about and we aren't giving them the freedom to allow the Holy Spirit to work and to understand the grace that's given them in the gospel.
Brenda (08:47.854)
And I know we just talked about this a few podcast episodes back about what happens when our conscience is burdened or violated and how hard that is and we certainly don't want to be doing that to someone else. We want to be patient and gracious as we walk with people and listen to them. I think another thing that can happen, particularly if we counsel strongly from a denominational bent, I think we can alienate a person because in some ways when we come with our own
Alex (08:55.788)
Alright.
Alex (09:00.484)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (09:17.838)
language, it can make somebody feel like maybe I'm not as biblical or maybe I don't have enough knowledge or maybe I'm missing something. I'm feeling more like an outsider than an insider. So we just want to make sure that our language just reflects, I think, an inclusiveness of the Bible narrative.
Alex (09:21.488)
Hmm.
Alex (09:36.901)
Yeah, and we're talking about this as believer to believer, but there's certainly cases when we're talking to people who are unbelievers. And I think we to be really careful there too, to have it that we're not talking in an us versus them type of way, that there are gonna be people who come to us and talk to us who we may suspect, you know, does not believe the gospel. And if we automatically alienate them because we dig in so hard on very specific
Brenda (09:39.918)
You
Brenda (10:02.168)
you
Alex (10:06.834)
specific doctrinal beliefs and we're going to make them feel like an outsider and not give this winsome and gracious view of who Jesus is and how he welcomes them to himself, not to a certain doctrinal position or denominational stance, but to himself. So I think that alienating the person can happen with believers or unbelievers. And then I think the next thing we do is we can neglect the whole counsel of God.
Confessions and creeds are certainly valuable and there are very specific historic conflicts that they rose out of in order to clarify doctrinal truths but they are not exhaustive and if we rely too heavily on them we can miss
Brenda (10:44.59)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (10:53.442)
maybe biblical truths that more directly address a person's situation. And I've again like I've caught myself thinking that when I've been quick to want to jump in on a specific thing someone said instead of really listening and thinking about what they're saying in the whole council of scripture that I don't have to go to a specific place I can I can pull out and I can focus on the big picture of the gospel and who God is and bring that to them.
Brenda (11:21.408)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yeah, and then just the last point. And again, I think when we give these points, hopefully people listening can come up with many more points and would love to hear that. know, love to know some other applications that are being drawn out, but we can replace shepherding or a walking with posture to kind of a teaching or kind of lording over or I think just more of a teaching posture. And so we talk a lot about how personal ministry needs to
Alex (11:33.06)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (11:45.488)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (11:49.712)
you
Brenda (11:55.37)
to have some instruction and then some of that can be doctrinal instruction, but we don't want to make it all about instruction or particularly theology, traditions. We want to walk with them in love and practical wisdom. And so sometimes when we get caught up too much in our own dogma, I think that we can lose that.
Alex (12:19.728)
So we want to remember that the more helpful way is to start with scripture, to listen well, and apply biblical truth in a way that meets people where they are and not where we want them to be. And not assuming our church's framework is the only or the best way to understand the struggle. And so in order to do that, we're going to try to remember some things to counter the belief that you have to believe what I believe.
Brenda (12:48.108)
Right, right. Well, and I think, you know, the most obvious always, I think we always come back to this as, humility and prayer, but to be humble. And I can remember a wise mentor of mine who was not in my particular, did not come from my particular doctrinal persuasion, told me one time to be careful to hold my doctrine, creeds, and confessions loosely, because when I get to heaven, I might find out that I'm the one that's wrong.
Alex (13:15.28)
All right.
Brenda (13:16.046)
And she was going to do the same. And, you know, one of things we're not saying here, Alex, is we never compromise on the essentials of the gospel, what it means to have a right relationship with God through faith in Christ. But there are many biblical teachings that people far smarter and more steady than us disagree on. And so we need, I mean, that's why we have all of these denominations. That's why denominations have different seminaries. That's why different organizations post their creeds and their confessions, because
Alex (13:24.485)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (13:36.09)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (13:46.0)
there are, you know, there's more than one way to interpret the scriptures and particularly when it comes to practical matters of faith.
Alex (13:56.537)
I think this point of humility is just really an important one. It's certainly the place to start. I think that assuming this posture of humility also means that if we can hold these doctrines, and creeds, and confessions loosely, we position ourselves as a learner of the people that we're with. And we've always said this is a side-by-side relationship. It's not a lording over relationship. And we really can have just such a richer, fuller understanding of the
when we're willing to even...
ask questions and understand why some of these beliefs that another person has that differ from us are important to them, what that means to them and why they believe that way. think it just brings a real richness again to our understanding of who God is and to the kingdom as a whole. If we begin to think that everyone believes what why largely middle-class America believes and that that is the gospel, we're really missing the kingdom of God and all its beauty.
Brenda (14:37.71)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (14:59.288)
and diversity. So I think this humble posture works both in not imposing our beliefs on another person and also helps us to position ourselves to learn and to be open to other ideas.
Brenda (15:10.156)
Yeah. And I think, you the flip side of this, great hindrance is pride and that knowledge does puff up. And I can just say for me as a, what is it, Padawan? What is Star Wars? Yeah, yeah, whatever the little learner is in Star Wars.
Alex (15:16.11)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (15:25.251)
Yeah.
The pad one.
Brenda (15:29.078)
Yeah, somebody early on in my Christian walk, early on in my counseling ministry, being very proud of the theology I was learning and the words that I had and how I could come in and speak this language that made me seem like I was so knowledgeable and this is the, you know, and that just that's never that's never really going to be profitable. And particularly
Alex (15:39.6)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (15:58.964)
when the goal is to show off or to present ourselves maybe in a way that is proud. So we want to be humble. I think, like you said, the demonstration of humility is that we do prioritize relationships over theological agreement. And then I just think we kind of touched on this idea about listening before labeling. We want to understand the heart and that's going to include what they've been taught from their own church tradition.
Alex (16:09.859)
Yeah.
Alex (16:17.775)
Yeah.
Brenda (16:28.888)
times when we're doing counseling, that's part of what we're asking people is tell me about the church you grew up in. Tell me about the key messages, the values, the belief systems. Tell me what was good. Tell me what was hard. Tell me what was bad. Because all of that is really, tell me about your, you know, your good experiences within church or Christian organizations and your bad experiences. Because that's really going to help us know where this person is coming from.
Alex (16:35.375)
right?
Alex (16:51.386)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (16:56.172)
Yeah, and in doing that, I think what we do is we anchor them in Christ's love first. The doctrines should support but not replace these primary commandments. Love God and love others. So how do we let love guide how we apply biblical truth in someone's lives? And if we can be humble and move past doctrinal dogma, we need to be able to anchor them in Christ's love.
Brenda (17:23.342)
And I think the apostle Paul said it the best in first Corinthians 13 to if I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have faith that can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. So we might say if I have all the creeds and confessions and dogma and denominational, you know, all the things, but I don't have love. am nothing. So we've got to counsel from love, not just from knowledge. And I think
Alex (17:36.048)
Mmm.
Alex (17:49.168)
Mm.
Brenda (17:53.282)
You know, our creeds and confessions and our denominational preference are based on the understanding that we have of Scripture in that particular church or institution. And that's good. Like we need to have those categories. I know that in my church that really, where I grew up as an adult, there were a lot of hooks and handles given to me and there was a lot, those provided a lot of structure for me to begin to understand Scripture and to put Scripture in good categories.
Alex (18:14.608)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (18:23.216)
and to hold on and to make sense. But I think what we're just saying is when those things become dogma, when they become the thing that we say, is the truth, this is the only way, my church, my organization, my institution has the corner on the truth. That's where we begin to get in trouble, particularly when we're talking about those non-essential issues.
Alex (18:24.016)
All right.
Alex (18:45.546)
Mm-hmm, that's really good.
So the last thing we want to do each time we talk about these errors that we've fallen into is focus back on Jesus as the better counselor. That Jesus perfectly balanced truth and love and he never compromised biblical truth and always met people where they were. So Jesus was Jewish, he had hundreds of laws and oral traditions and yet even holding all of those and fulfilling them, he focused on loving God and loving people and not just converting.
hurting people to Judaism. I think that's just a really great point to remember.
Brenda (19:25.294)
Hmm.
Yeah, we can see this, you know, with the woman at the well in John four. He didn't start with a theological correction, right? He doesn't go to her and say, wait, lady, you don't understand anything about, you know, the Jewish faith. And he engaged her heart and he he met her in her brokenness and he pointed her to truth. And then we see this with Nicodemus in John three. He didn't mock him. He had a very fair cycle framework, but Jesus patiently guided him into deeper understanding. And even with the Pharisees, you know, the Pharisees get a
Alex (19:37.166)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (19:43.738)
Yeah.
Alex (19:50.425)
Yeah.
Brenda (19:56.532)
bad rap, but really if you are a Christian who really wants to trust and obey God, then you're a Pharisee. A Pharisee isn't necessarily somebody bad, it's somebody who really wanted to obey and follow the Lord, but what happened was, as oftentimes in our particular movement of wanting to be faithful, is that we can become legalistic rather than obedience oriented, more like law and legalistic oriented. And so would you
Alex (20:02.832)
Mm.
Alex (20:19.375)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (20:26.576)
did is he rebuked those who prioritized doctrine over mercy and calling them out for neglecting justice, mercy, and faithfulness. So you know there was a particular way that the Jews were taught and things they believed but Jesus was always calling them back. Like those should never be in conflict with justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
Alex (20:34.091)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (20:48.686)
Yeah, think what we see is that Jesus showed us that truth matters, but truth without love is not going to be effective. So, he loved with compassion, knowing that true transformation really comes from the spirit and not just intellectual agreement. And so we can abandon the idea that we have to convert people to our way of thinking and we can love them.
Brenda (20:55.736)
Yeah.
Brenda (21:09.868)
Right. That's right. That's right. So I think what we just want people to remember as they walk away is that, you know, love and truth has to go hand in hand and our doctrine and our own and our own personal doctrinal.
Alex (21:19.824)
Hmm.
Brenda (21:26.69)
beliefs or preferences should serve as a guide, but we don't need to weaponize those against other people. Yeah, and our aim is to point people to Jesus in the scripture and not just a theological stance or a position to agree with. And I think if we can keep the scriptures the main thing, you know, if you keep the main thing the main thing, the second and third things will follow. So our heart is, you know, that we would be physicians,
Alex (21:32.47)
That's a great way to say that.
Alex (21:47.44)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (21:51.632)
Mm.
Brenda (21:56.576)
soul physicians who care for people the way Christ did with truth, of course, but with deep abiding love as well. neither one of those has to be sacrificed when we follow the Lord and we minister like Jesus ministered. So Alex, we started off saying that we really wanted this series just to be an inspirational and motivational piece that maybe for people who have a heart for personal ministry, they've seen the Lord change their lives.
Alex (22:08.803)
Right.
Brenda (22:26.51)
to enter into spaces where God could use them to change other people's lives as an instrument in his hand that we were hoping that this series would provide some confidence and some competence in areas that can be tricky, maybe some sticking points, maybe areas where we lack that level of or the things that are keeping us back. Maybe that's a better way to say it. It's like we don't want the enemy of God is going to use
Alex (22:33.104)
Hmm.
Alex (22:38.384)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (22:52.644)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (22:56.44)
anything he can to keep us back from proclaiming the name of Jesus and leading people into a loving relationship and a loving life. And so all we want to do is push back and fight the enemy's lies that you as the Christian in the pew with the Bible, the Holy Spirit and a great throng of witnesses of the church worldwide around you to cheer you, support you, guide you are not able
Alex (23:01.806)
Yep.
Brenda (23:26.42)
or equipped to have an impact for personal ministry first in that sphere immediate sphere of influence we always talk about that and then as God brings people your way so I really hope we've accomplished that in this series and I hope some people will realize I need to get off the the sidelines and quit using all these excuses because failure is a part of this process I'm not going to be
Alex (23:50.55)
Yes, Brenda and Alex have already gone ahead of you and made the mistakes, so you can make them too.
Brenda (23:54.67)
That's right. That's right. That's right. And it is part of the growth. And I think it's what keeps us humble and dependent. we, you know, if we didn't have these failures, if we weren't recognizing our need for growth and how much we've changed and grown, then it would be really easy to be self-sufficient. But this whole work of ministry is a God work.
It starts with the Holy Spirit, we work through it through the Holy Spirit, and we end with the Holy Spirit. And of course, all for God's glory. And so I just hope that this has been a blessing and I hope to hear from some people on our social media. Email us, talk to us, give us feedback. Let us know what you thought about this series. Let us know maybe if there's some things that are holding you back that we didn't address. We can always do a bonus and add it to this. We'd love to know.