Season 10 Ep.6 / Your Body Doesn’t Matter!

Alex (00:06.315)

Well, we're back in our season of do as I say and not as I do. I think we could keep going, Brenda. There are plenty of things that we've done that we would tell people not to do, but we are gonna limit ourselves in this season. And today we're gonna touch on a topic that I think we've both grown in. We've both grown to learn not only about ourselves, but of others. And that topic is that we used to think that your body doesn't matter.

Brenda (00:15.296)

Right?

Brenda (00:34.251)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (00:34.667)

And we've realized that's a false belief and that it really does matter in counseling. We see a lot of people who want to focus on what's called the inner man. We were probably trained to only focus on the inner man and to ignore the body. And so I think this will be an interesting discussion because it does have some deep philosophical roots.

Brenda (00:37.806)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (00:45.752)

Mm.

Alex (00:58.019)

and there's actually a good bit of debate raging in the biblical counseling movement about the body. And we really have come to recognize that we are embodied souls and that understanding that we are embodied souls changes the way that we counsel people. But we want to recognize that there are some reasons why people are quote unquote afraid of the body or don't go there.

Brenda (01:02.37)

Hehehehehe

Alex (01:24.923)

One is probably rooted in a fear of secular psychology, which has embraced the body. And to the other side of that, and maybe two sides of the same coin, is this kind of hyper spirituality, which says that only the soul matters, the body doesn't matter. There's even a sense of like,

Why would we even have this discussion? I'm focusing on what's really important, which is the inner man or the spiritual man. And I think it's a little bit of a neo-gnosticism, that philosophy that said that the material world is evil and it kind of is kind of morphed into the body is evil or maybe not that far, but just not important and therefore we can just ignore it.

Brenda (02:02.445)

Yeah.

Brenda (02:11.335)

Mm-hmm. was thinking back to our trauma series when we had Tiffany on and she was saying how in the secular realm a lot of times in medicine and psychology they have the reverse problem that we have. Well, we might go to hyper spirituality. It's only about the spirit man. The body doesn't matter. They go to it's only the body. The spirit man doesn't exist or doesn't matter. And what we're saying is and I think this has been you know rather new for us and maybe the last 10 years that the body really does matter. And as counselors

Alex (02:22.401)

Yeah.

Alex (02:29.493)

Yes.

Brenda (02:41.229)

We're not in any way setting ourselves up as doctors and going to that level of telling people what to how to care for their bodies but there is the Bible has a lot to say about the body and I think you know our one of our favorite pastor counselors dr. Kellerman I think we should link I think he's got like 500 scripture references about being an embodied soul And so if you don't believe us if you're if you don't think this is important topic then go look at all of his scriptural proofs because he does a great job, but I know

Alex (03:01.377)

Mm-hmm.

Right? Don't take our word for it.

Brenda (03:11.159)

in my own life, I used to have this magnet on my refrigerator, which might really sum up what my motto was thinking about the body and the soul. And the magnet said this, eat right, exercise, die anyway.

Alex (03:25.065)

I have.

Brenda (03:27.117)

And that is not the mentality that God wants us to have when it comes to our bodies. So I do think it's interesting as I'm studying in Exodus still and just through the the Torah that the Old Testament states knew very little about the afterlife.

Alex (03:32.631)

you

Alex (03:46.423)

Hmm.

Brenda (03:46.85)

which is interesting, they focused on life on Earth. And so there's a lot to say about that, I don't have time, but they had a very embodied existence.

Alex (03:56.567)

Yeah.

Brenda (03:57.386)

And one of my recent theories, for lack of better terms, is that I think some of the things, or maybe a lot of the things that we teach people now in counseling, when it comes to how to calm our bodies or how to have agency over our bodies, breath work, movement, beauty, grounding, where we ground in God's presence and His goodness, was actually built into the Hebrew lifestyle with their rituals, their sacrifices, their celebrations, their dietary customs.

and all of those things. And so, we just live very disembodied lives. We sit a lot. We don't have to do the things. We watch YouTube instead of doing it. We do our work from our computers and those sort of things. So, I think there can be just a really a tendency to discount the body and the importance of the body. So, let's just talk some very high-level basic biblical teaching about the body. First of all, in Genesis 1 and 2, we learn that the body is good by design.

Alex (04:45.025)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (04:57.199)

Everything that God created, he said, was good. And the body is the first thing that God gave Adam and Eve to Stuart. And I know we've talked a good bit about this, that he gives him a body, then he breathes life into that body or animates it with the soul. But when we think about the commands to tend and keep and to multiply and beautify, as we like to say, I mean, it starts with our own body. How are we going to do this work God has given us if we don't have this body to do it in?

Alex (04:57.537)

Hmm.

Alex (05:22.603)

Right?

Brenda (05:27.119)

In 3 and Romans 8, the scripture talks about how sin affects not just the soul of man, but the body of man as well. How we are decaying. The outer man is wasting away. The inner man is being renewed. Of course, in John and Philippians and throughout the scripture, we're told that Jesus took on a real human body. And this was part of the arguments of the Gnostics. Was Jesus' body really human? Could it really be human? Because flesh is bad.

Alex (05:33.131)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex (05:47.809)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (05:52.213)

Yeah.

Alex (05:55.905)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (05:56.992)

know, material is bad, but no, he took on a real human body. He had to take on a real human body in order to be our great high priest. And then 1 Corinthians 15, and again, throughout scripture, we're told our future hope is in a resurrected, embodied life. And so these bodies that God has given us are vitally important and we do not need to or have to ignore them in the counseling context.

Alex (06:12.865)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (06:26.407)

Right? Yeah. And as you said, scripture does present this holistic view. I love that Dr. Kellerman found 500 verses. We're going to touch on a couple, yeah, probably more. We're going to touch on a few of them to recognize that what happens to the body impacts the soul and what happens to the soul impacts the body. Like Proverbs 17 22, a joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.

Brenda (06:26.895)

you

Brenda (06:34.443)

Might be more.

Alex (06:52.787)

And then one I've thought about a lot where David says that his unconfessed sin affected his physical health. think is that the one where his his loins are burning which on my inflammation I've thought about that. And then we see this example with Elijah, you know, and he's in despair. And what happens is that God addresses that despair with food and rest before any spiritual renewal before addressing his depression before addressing

Brenda (07:04.877)

Ha ha ha.

Alex (07:21.047)

any of the things he's saying, he gives him food and he gives him rest to just recognize that there are physical factors that need to be considered in our emotional manifestations. And I think one of the reasons we might not do it is because the body-soul connection is really complex. We don't understand it. We often can't separate it out. This is the body part, this is the soul part. This is the part that's your body and this is the part that your soul and his sin or suffering.

And so we don't want to wade into this discussion often because it is hard to understand. And yet I think it's a tension that we have to hold, that they go together and we often don't understand where one ends and one begins.

Brenda (08:02.005)

Yeah, and I think that...

therein lies some of the danger and consequence of ignoring the body, right, is that we do miss that body and soul connection. And I'm just thinking about my daughter who's five months postpartum and her hair is falling out and she's doing getting night sweats and then freezing and she feels like her mind is racing and she's just on edge. And I could just come in and be like, you're being so anxious. You're sinful. You're being so short with your children. And you are, you know, you're just you're too down. You're just too low. You're just acting too depressed.

Alex (08:14.281)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:27.371)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (08:34.087)

What's wrong with you? But if I take a step back, I can realize whoa, five months postpartum, hasn't, you know, just quit nursing, hormones are shifting, and her body is playing a significant role in how she is handling life around her, but also there is something really going on inside of her.

Alex (08:45.771)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (08:51.921)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that sounds like menopause.

Brenda (08:55.037)

I know right? Well, I mean, I feel like we kind of yeah, I get the short end of that stick with postpartum PMS menopause. It just never stops. And those are real things to consider Alex, right? They're not. They're not excuses we make like we don't give somebody a pass and say well you can go sin, but we also recognize like it is harder to not sin and we need to take special care of our body. We need to know when we're in those places where our body is vulnerable and we need to have grace.

Alex (09:01.495)

Yeah. I had to tell us real things.

Alex (09:18.199)

Mmm.

Alex (09:22.795)

Yeah.

Brenda (09:24.921)

accept God's grace for our frailties and weaknesses and at the same time extend grace to others.

Alex (09:30.816)

And I think this is obviously true for men, but one little story helped me really understand how true this is for women. friend of mine went to, he and his wife went to a natural path here in town and had some testing done and he eats sugar, he hates vegetables. know, his wife is just all in trying to eat healthy and do all the healthy things. And of course her test results come back with tons of things wrong.

tons of things to address and has come back with like one or two. And he says to the naturopath, he was like, I guess I was staying on my regimen of eating sugar, not eating vegetables, you know, and it makes this joke. And naturopath looks at him and he was like, yeah, just remember you never bore children. And I was like, wow, like there really is something to what women's bodies do you go through some very particular, unique things that

Brenda (10:02.7)

Ha ha ha.

Alex (10:28.415)

with hormonally that men's bodies don't always have to experience. And so we do need to make some allowances and special care for that because one of the other dangers we've thought about if we ignore the body is that we're gonna really experience fatigue and burnout because if we think that this body that we've been given has no limitations or has no considerations,

Brenda (10:55.916)

Yep.

Alex (10:57.663)

and we don't recognize we need rest and Sabbath and physical renewal, then we are going to run this body into the ground. And I've been guilty of that. I say that without judgment. I have done it. I have experienced the fatigue and the burnout from it. because I continue to think that I could live without limitations.

Brenda (11:06.549)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (11:18.061)

Yeah, I think it's really biblical counsel to tell someone.

I'm not going to give you any counsel until you do these things to take care of your body. Right? Because if you're not sleeping, if you're burning the candle on both ends, you're not eating well, you are just being buried in stress because you don't have enough time. We can't even get to the heart issues because this person is so physically and emotionally compromised because they've just beaten themselves down and worn themselves out. So...

Alex (11:26.391)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (11:40.565)

Yeah.

Alex (11:48.086)

I had a case like that where the first thing we tried to do was just get the woman to establish a sleep routine. Her days and nights were backwards and she did not sleep. She just slept in a couple of hours at a time and we just tried because we felt like we could not address the emotional issues without addressing the fact that she was experiencing exhaustion all the time. And

Brenda (11:56.631)

Yeah.

Brenda (12:06.114)

Yeah.

Alex (12:13.599)

She was really resistant to it. So then we had to dig in right there of like, why do you not want to care for your body?

Brenda (12:18.821)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that was the most merciful and the best counsel that you could have given her in that moment. So we just want to be aware of that another

area where we get in trouble if we ignore the bodies, if we neglect medical conditions or medicines that can affect emotions. So, you know, some people have thyroid disorders. We've already talked about hormonal changes, chronic illnesses with chronic pain, sleep deprivation, somebody who has an eating disorder or disordered eating and their intake of calories or nutrition. Like all of those are things that we need to be aware of.

Alex (12:34.833)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alex (12:44.076)

Yeah.

Brenda (12:58.535)

And then there's some medicines that people take as well. Some of the side effect of medicines can be more anxiety, it can be more depression, it could be just feeling more on edge. So we just need to be aware of those things.

Alex (13:01.601)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (13:12.265)

Yeah, I think it's always a good question to ask of a good friend. He recently started to work with a doctor on her thyroid and is finally getting some medication that is addressing her thyroid issues. And she said to me just last week, she was like, I just didn't realize how every day felt like climbing.

the tallest mountain and that's going to affect your emotions. There's no way that when you get out of bed and you already feel like you don't have the energy to just do your normal tasks, that's not going to affect your emotions. And just seeing her come to life by just addressing the thyroid by a doctor who's really just said, hey, we've got to get this under control. It's been amazing and I can see the difference in her countenance. So yeah, the medical conditions have to, and I think we always need

Brenda (13:34.679)

Hmm.

Brenda (13:41.57)

Yep.

Brenda (13:47.767)

Yeah.

Brenda (13:58.068)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, that's so good.

Alex (14:02.819)

to be aware and ask people if they're under the care of a doctor and what kinds of encourage them to be talking about the emotional things with the doctor and talk about the physical things with us so we can recognize that mind-body connection.

Brenda (14:06.38)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (14:18.825)

Another danger we see is the impact of substance abuse and addiction on the body. That addiction is not just a body or not just a soul, it's a body-soul enslavement. so telling someone, well, just stop, particularly in the use of drugs or alcohol. I just had to say this to someone last week, like be really careful with your family member who now wants to just get sober from alcohol.

Brenda (14:29.314)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (14:33.175)

Mmm.

Brenda (14:45.133)

Cold turkey.

Alex (14:46.653)

Yes, how dangerous that is to the body.

Brenda (14:50.061)

Absolutely. And then there's also just other addictions, Alex, that aren't even substance related, but like porn. We've got so much coming out with neuroscience now, neurotheology, right, that we're connecting what what neuro, neurologists are saying about the brain along with what we know God says. And we know that things like porn and other non-substance addictions also rewire the brain and alter the structure and function of the brain.

Alex (14:59.095)

Yeah.

Alex (15:02.775)

Mm.

Alex (15:17.643)

Yeah.

Brenda (15:20.015)

Thank

Alex (15:20.299)

Yeah, yeah. Another danger or consequence is that we can miss physical expressions of emotions. And that's kind of what we're talking about, like with my friend and their thyroid issues, but other things like tension or stress, headaches, suffering, grief, like we can miss that those have physical expression and we want to be able to recognize and encourage people to care for them.

Brenda (15:47.914)

And then the last one that we thought of, which just makes me cringe to think about is when we name a behavior as sin that has physical causes. And this could be.

maybe in a lot different realms, but the one that I really think about is dementia. My mom is currently in the process of her dementia getting worse and you know, there's just behaviors that are coming up and things that she is saying. And sometimes we're going back, I'm going back and forth going like, is that her memory or is that her flesh? But really giving somebody the benefit of the doubt when we are not sure and understanding that there are sicknesses, there are things that happen to the body.

Alex (16:11.606)

Hmm.

Alex (16:18.359)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (16:30.831)

that take people to a place where activity and words and attitudes may seem sinful when in fact they are really the result of some damage being done to the body. Yeah.

Alex (16:36.823)

Hmm.

Alex (16:42.303)

Yeah, particularly the brain. Yeah. Yeah.

So one of the things we've done as we talk about what not to do, like we need to remember that we don't say that the body doesn't matter and then we want to talk about the danger and the consequences of that, but then we also want to remember some things to counter that, some things to hold on to as we think about addressing both the body and the soul. And the first thing I would say is that we want to follow Jesus' example, that we see a whole person in front of us and that we address

physical and spiritual needs together. Again, we don't give medical advice, but we certainly can encourage people to explore and find practitioners who can help them address their body issues.

Brenda (17:29.953)

Yeah, and I think when it comes to encouraging basic care that we can then we can encourage that and we can help care for the whole person. I think more than anything we want to see them holistically. We want to acknowledge all the things we've talked about when we sit with someone and not hyper spiritualizer over spiritualizer discount in some way the body and we can just do this simply by helping a person practice good stewardship and as we disciple them we want to encourage rhythms of rest nutrition movement.

Alex (17:54.455)

Yeah.

Brenda (17:59.84)

All the things that will make them aware of their bodies, right? It goes back to like they have to become a good steward that begins with acknowledging the beauty of their bodies, the goodness of their bodies, the place of their bodies. And then, everybody's a little bit different. So not everybody has the exact same sleep demands or their hobbies of what moves them toward rest or restoration or beauty may look different. But asking the kind of questions that help us know what is going to help us

Alex (18:04.139)

Hmm.

Brenda (18:29.803)

person operate the best and then being able to you know help them maybe have some tangible plans to achieve their physical goals that will then also encourage the right environment if you will for spiritual growth.

Alex (18:32.267)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (18:49.993)

Yeah, the first person, this might surprise you, but one of the first people that gave me permission in this area of addressing body and soul was John Piper. And he used to say, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is go to bed and get a good night's sleep. And when he put it in, when he framed it in that way, I was like, Hmm, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brenda (19:05.545)

Yep, yep.

Right? I'm gonna say amen to that because I do love to sleep now. And it's interesting, I've had people come into my office and they are just looked so exhausted and I'm just like, you know, we could just dim the lights and I've got a blanket and a pillow and just lay down because I really think the most spiritual thing you could do right now is take this hour to take a nap or just to put your feet up and just rest.

Alex (19:22.881)

Yeah.

Alex (19:28.203)

Yeah.

Yeah. Or some people I have had who drive a distance to see me and they said, hey, nothing against you, Alex, but I think the hour in the car by myself is more therapeutic than my time with you. And I don't doubt that. they'll discipline themselves to turn off the radio and just have quiet and drive. And an hour of quiet is...

Brenda (19:48.877)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (19:52.386)

probably way more therapeutic talking to me, but it's just this recognition that we need to nudge people towards caring for their bodies. And sometimes we need to even do more than nudge. We need to actually assign it to them for homework as part of this discipleship practice. And in doing that, we're really trusting God's design by honoring and stewarding our bodies rather than neglecting them. A lot of people push back on this idea of self-care.

Brenda (20:06.156)

Yeah.

Alex (20:21.385)

I remember when my girls were in their late teens, early twenties, and arguing whether self-care was biblical. And I said, why don't we just call it self-stewardship and be done? Because stewardship is a very biblical principle. And if that makes you feel better to call it stewardship,

Brenda (20:30.988)

Yeah.

Brenda (20:34.956)

Yep.

Alex (20:39.475)

and recognize that it is a biblical principle that we need to care for what God's given us. And there's only really one thing we're going to have from birth to grave, right? That God's given us to care for. Other things are going to move in and out of our lives, but we are going to have to care for this body.

Brenda (20:54.861)

That's a great point.

Well, we want to wrap up our time as we've been doing with all of our podcast in this series, and that's just focusing on this idea of how did Jesus handle these same concerns that we're talking about. So in this case, how did Jesus handle the body and his ministry was certainly body and soul, right? We think about Mark 2, 1 through 12. Well, he hears the paralytic and forgives the sins, right? He does both.

Alex (21:09.472)

Hmm

Alex (21:17.079)

Mm-hmm, it was.

Alex (21:24.363)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (21:26.689)

fed the hungry in Matthew 14, rested in Mark 6, valued human touch in Luke 5. We can see throughout the Gospels how he experienced emotions physically. He was grieved, he wept, he swept blood in agony, and then his resurrection affirms the body's eternal value. In Luke 24 39 he says, touch and see, a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

Alex (21:33.734)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (21:43.575)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (21:55.166)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love all of those. It just makes me remember just how how Jesus really never missed the whole person and he always emphasized just the right thing and how so often in scripture

when he's healing people, he is also in really quiet, gentle ways addressing their soul, or when he's addressing their soul, he's also meeting a physical need by feeding them or doing these things. And it just doesn't seem to be a struggle for Jesus.

Brenda (22:28.29)

Bye.

Alex (22:28.725)

to address the whole person. just sees them, he understands them, moves towards the whole person and doesn't in any way separate that. So that alone, besides all the scripture verses that talk about the body, but just Jesus and the way that he ministered is really the reason that we can feel so secure that addressing these body issues are not, not de-emphasizing the spiritual man, but it's just recognizing how much they're tied together because

Brenda (22:43.105)

Hmm.

Alex (22:57.813)

We would say our main takeaways today are that the body affirms the goodness of, I'm sorry, the Bible affirms the goodness of the body. Like the body is good. The body is very good actually when God made Adam and Eve. It's the first time he broke his rhythm and said it's very good. Jesus is the better counselor because he knows our spiritual and physical weaknesses and he meets us just as he met people in the gospels over and over again exactly where we are as an embodied soul that struggles

Brenda (23:08.129)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex (23:27.757)

with both of those things.

Brenda (23:29.229)

Yeah, so I think, you know, at the end of the day, maybe this is the bottom line takeaway. Care for yourself and others holistically as whole persons made in the image of God.

Alex (23:37.793)

Yeah.

Brenda (23:41.133)

And first Thessalonians 523 says, may your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we just want to give the same level of care and respect and attention to the body that God does, Alex, as we are ministering to people. And so I hope that this podcast has been helpful. I know it has been for me and just rethinking how to minister more holistically, making sure we don't miss that part.

Alex (23:46.505)

Hmm.

Alex (23:58.901)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (24:06.912)

Yeah.

Brenda (24:11.177)

of a person when we're walking with them and I hope it's been also good for our listeners as well.

Alex (24:13.431)

Mm-hmm.