Season 10 Ep.5 / It Doesn’t Matter What I Believe!
Brenda (00:03.096)
Well, Alex, I've come to this podcast this morning representing big time. If you're watching the YouTube channel, you can see, yeah, I got this really ridiculous Chattanooga mox hat that's so colorful. And of course my sweatshirt, very fancy. I hope that I'm not going to jinx us in any way because we're playing in the Southern Conference Championship this weekend and we're actually number one in the conference. And Alex, now your team is also in my conference, which is actually
Alex (00:09.59)
Tilt your head so we can see the hat.
Alex (00:16.032)
Fancy.
Alex (00:28.192)
Mm-hmm.
And not number one. Yeah.
Brenda (00:33.04)
conference that I've adopted. He is the the alum, not me, but no, I think I think Paul told me their number five, but you know you come to the tournament and you start with zero. So you know everybody gets to start over. So anyway, we'll be going to Asheville this weekend and really looking forward to a good time and hopefully the last time we were there. The Mox beat Furman at the buzzer with a great shot. Yeah, the buzzer beater and so that was really exciting. Maybe we will have a repeat.
Alex (00:41.12)
Uh-huh.
That's right.
Alex (00:50.526)
Wow!
Alex (00:55.494)
Mm-hmm at the buzz of the buzzer beater
Brenda (01:03.0)
of that same thing. But any rate, don't know if there's any other Mox fans out there or Furman fans out there. Let us know who you're pulling for.
Alex (01:04.01)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (01:10.314)
Thank you, yes, the paladins will might represent.
Brenda (01:14.446)
so great. Well, listen, we are continuing our series that we're calling Do As I Say and Not As I Do. And I was thinking about our title. Next week, Paul and I are going to England. And one of the things we're going to get to do is go to Stratford-upon-Avon, which is the home place of Beethoven. And we're going to get to go to the Royal Shakespeare. I'm serious, Shakespeare. You know what? I say Beethoven every single time I say this. Every time I tell someone.
Alex (01:34.358)
Now I better have been Shakespeare.
Alex (01:40.372)
Hey, you'll get corrected in Stratford. Every stone has something to do with Shakespeare.
Brenda (01:43.595)
every time.
Yes it does. Yes it does. Well we're going to go to the Royal Shakespeare Theater and one of Paul's friends picked out Hamlet for us to go see. So Paul and I thought well between the British accent and the writing of Shakespeare we better watch.
Alex (01:51.446)
There you go.
Alex (01:57.142)
Mmm.
Brenda (02:02.698)
with closed captions, Hamlet on TV. So we pulled up a 1996 version that has a great cast like with Robin Williams and Kate Winslet and people like that. And even though we could read it, we still couldn't understand most of what they were saying. It is so hard and so complicated. But as I was watching it, I was thinking about our podcast because in it, one of the like the King's
Alex (02:04.054)
Ha ha ha ha!
Alex (02:17.27)
That's hilarious.
Brenda (02:26.69)
best advisor goes to tell his son and daughter at different points that they don't need to be sleeping around and being immoral with people. And then you go to the next scene and that same father is sleeping with a prostitute. Right? And so what I was thinking is we are not telling people here that we're telling them to do something while we are doing something else, you know, but what we are trying to say is that there are things in our counseling history and there are things that we are still encountering because
Alex (02:38.975)
yeah.
Alex (02:54.47)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (02:56.714)
we're still growing where you know we that we've done things we just want to say hey learn from our mistakes let us teach you and show you and talk about some things and I think you know we're this this particular podcast along with a few others we have ahead of us I think are going to be some of the harder topics that we're going to face or talk about and I think these are issues that might be a little bit more current in our struggles like within the last 10 years things that have come up and that are still
Alex (03:16.886)
they are.
Brenda (03:26.634)
coming up in the current counseling climate.
Alex (03:29.908)
Yeah, and I think I was thinking this morning, these are probably the three most nuanced podcasts of this series. And so I encourage people to listen to the end. Don't turn this off after we say one thing and because we'll probably nuance almost everything we say in this podcast.
Brenda (03:46.274)
Yeah, that's a great point. Stick with us to the end. Well, today we want to address kind of this thinking or this belief that it doesn't matter what I believe. So therefore it doesn't matter what I say or how I advocate or how I stand up. And again, just going back to Hamlet, it was just such a great play for me to watch in light of our podcast because this same father as he's sending his son off to the university says these famous lines that we will
Alex (03:49.087)
Right.
Brenda (04:16.448)
almost all of us know from Hamlet and he says this to kind of summarize his counsel, this above all to thine own self be true and it must follow as the night the day thou canst not then be false to any man. Hmm, exactly. So this father is saying something really important and what he's telling his son is to have integrity.
Alex (04:30.582)
Mmm.
Alex (04:40.118)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (04:40.758)
And integrity is this idea of being whole and undivided. Now we know we can only be true to ourselves to the degree that we are true to Jesus. But you know this idea of representing Jesus, holy and undivided, know, his heart, his truth, and for us to stand in a place of counsel where we don't feel like we're having to divide ourselves in order to appease somebody else or give in to somebody else can be really, really
Alex (04:57.317)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (05:10.712)
difficult, especially because people hold different views of beliefs and practice than we hold, right? So we're going to talk about some of the challenges of remaining true to God's Word when your convictions might be different than the person you're counseling or your church leadership or maybe even what you've been taught. And then, you know, especially working with people in positions of power and authority who we may disagree with when we are counseling.
Alex (05:16.672)
Yeah.
Alex (05:40.318)
Yeah, I know you and I both been in situations like this more than once and we want to say the outset that we very much want to keep the peace and unity of the church but there are times when we've both come up against situations where we have to ask ourselves what is the cost of the peace and unity of the church and so sometimes the cost is
to the person who is seeking help that's heard. And sometimes it might mean that God's character's maligned. Sometimes it means that we have to go against all we believe to be right and true. And those costs, we've both found are too high. And I think as we've gotten older, I think maybe we've gotten a little more seasoned in handling these situations that are hard when you start off because a lot of these areas that we're talking about, there are not clear scriptural directives. If there were,
wouldn't even have to have the conversation. So we're going to start with an example so people have an idea of what we're talking about. It doesn't remain abstract, but it can become a little bit more concrete. This is certainly something both of us have had to wait into, and that would be the area of separation and divorce. So suppose your church or your church leadership believes that separation and divorce are only permissible in cases of physical violence, but you believe that any
abandonment includes like chronic destructive behavior patterns that break down the marriage and I think this is a really big one, break down the personhood of one of the spouses. And you may even agree with like what Chris Moll says that that
verbal and psychological abuse that wears away at the sense of a person's, at a person's personhood also begins to affect them physically. And he actually says that it becomes physical abuse. so, say you're meeting with this woman and her husband's very controlling, he's verbally and psychologically abusive, and the woman is asking if she can separate from her husband to get clarity.
Brenda (07:40.716)
Hmm
Alex (07:53.34)
allow both of them to get help. But the church does not believe in separation for this or doesn't believe she has grounds for divorce. They want her to remain in counseling to learn how to be a better wife and suffer well. Maybe even want her to remain in marriage counseling, which we would discourage. So what do you do?
Brenda (08:11.118)
Hmm.
Alex (08:11.818)
Do you go along with the leadership and even though you see her being harmed or do you begin to advocate for her? And so these situations get really intense really fast. And as we said in previous podcasts, we want to reiterate again, ultimately it's not our decision, which I hope is freeing to people. If you're walking with somebody, one of the biggest things we have to do is empower them to make their own decisions. But we might have to stand in the place where we support.
her where we are speaking to church leaders broadly about the issue maybe not about the big situation and in in some cases
we may have to bring other people in like trained victims advocates so we can stay in the role of counselor and she can have an advocate and I'm really glad that that may be a new term or a new understanding for people who are listening but it's a really growing field that I see them really excited about because over the last many years we've found ourselves often having to wear both hats of advocate and counselor. It's very hard to juggle both and so I'm really grateful to
advocates being trained that actually move in and talk to church leadership in cases where maybe discipline is being brought. But oftentimes what I see happening is that because we are the ones walking with the woman, we are like the first line before an advocate's even brought in. And so we often stand in this place where we have to be supportive and encouraging of a decision that may go against church leadership.
Brenda (09:50.606)
All right, so I think right out here from the outset, we may have already scared some people off. They're like, I don't know what to do. I'm out of here. But this is really, really, really.
Alex (09:55.926)
True.
Brenda (10:04.298)
And it's a place I know as we counsel people, particularly from outside of our church context, then we run into this more because you don't even always know what somebody's church context is or what their leadership or where they stand. But let's just talk about a few other areas where conscience can be of concern. In your example, you were really talking about even just separation. I there are some churches that just will not even let you separate. We call it our church.
Alex (10:23.872)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (10:32.139)
Right.
Brenda (10:34.232)
separation can be a separation for restoration, right? Like we would like to move people in that direction if possible. But when it comes to divorce and remarriage, I mean, I think the thing we need to remember is that churches can't even agree on this. Seminaries don't agree on this. Pastors don't agree. Right? So for us to come into a situation and not agree maybe with the position of the person in authority would not be actually unusual.
Alex (10:37.206)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (10:48.36)
Right. Very learned, that's right.
Brenda (11:04.112)
it would actually be pretty common that that would happen. And it's interesting, I find that churches oftentimes that have very staunch views on divorce actually have pretty lax views on remarriage. So it's like, we're really staunch on this side, but then we don't really have that much to say on the other side. You and I love marriage. In cases like this, we wanna see restoration whenever possible, but sometimes it's not possible.
Alex (11:16.597)
interesting.
Brenda (11:34.064)
have just found that when I sit with somebody and my theology won't hold the situation, in other words, I'm finding that I'm more compassionate and kind than God is, right? That I need to rethink matters. You know, the whole idea of practical theology is so what? What difference does this teaching make in this particular situation? And, you know, so again, not to make the scriptures bend to
Alex (11:47.712)
Hmm.
Alex (11:57.718)
Mm.
Brenda (12:03.988)
what I think, but also there's just some real like if I if I wouldn't treat my own daughter that way and nobody I know would want my daughter treated that way, then why would I think that this would be an acceptable environment for God to keep his daughters in?
Alex (12:18.486)
Can you say more about if you're being kinder than God?
Brenda (12:23.66)
Yeah, I guess what I just mean by that is there are just times where when you're meeting with someone, you are recognizing that they are being abused, that they are being demeaned, that they are being oppressed, that they are losing their personhood. And actually what that means is that they are being asked to worship, right? Somebody other than God. And God doesn't tolerate that. So he's a jealous God in that. He looks down. We know all throughout the scripture that God looks to the oppressed.
Alex (12:41.782)
Hmm.
Brenda (12:53.604)
hears their cry, he sees them, he comes to rescue them, he pulls them out. And I just think if I'm sitting there hearing all that, just saying, yeah, you just need to suffer well and learn how to be a better wife, then there's no, then all of a sudden, am I kinder than God is? Does that make sense? Like, I'm not kinder than God. God is kinder than me. He is more compassionate than me. So he is going to hear and act on their behalf.
Alex (12:53.718)
Hmm.
Alex (13:03.487)
Right.
Alex (13:12.34)
It does.
Alex (13:17.522)
Right, yeah, I'm glad you clarified that. helpful.
The other place that goes hand in hand with this is oftentimes churches will force reconciliation. if, if separation has occurred, you know, they want to encourage a victim of abuse to forgive and reconcile with their abuser. And this can be marriage, but it can also be other family members. And if, if you believe that genuine and repentance and safety haven't been established, you know, you may find yourself in a position where you're
going against what the church leaders are encouraging. Of course not to forgive in their own hearts, but we make a big distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation and restoration. And so this is definitely an area that we see differing opinions on and case by case it changes. You know this is very individual to the cases that we work on.
Brenda (14:19.822)
You
So another area then we're saying is forced reconciliation or expecting quick forgiveness without building trust first. I think another issue where we see, you know, differences and where our convictions might differ is just in the area of the gender roles for women. And I think you and I both would say, you know, and this might not be everybody's conviction, but for us, women teaching or leading in the church and non pastoral roles is perfectly acceptable. We felt very comfortable stepping into those spaces.
Alex (14:25.864)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Alex (14:38.518)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (14:51.312)
and would encourage other women to. But we also know that different leaders and even different people we counsel are going to have different views on that. And that might even affect like the homework you give somebody, Alex, right? I mean, even considering something along those lines.
Alex (15:04.481)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think what goes hand in hand with that Brenda is when you talk about the homework is there are some churches, I mean, I just talked to someone yesterday who's reading a book that's not on an approved list by her church and she loves it and she's been recommending it to people. And so we might recommend homework by people whose views don't line up with the churches and there again, that can cause friction if there's a lot of tight control over what people read or listen to.
The other place we find is protecting reputations over the vulnerable. So sometimes leadership will ask you to minimize or avoid discussing cases of spiritual abuse, domestic violence, sexual sin among leaders to preserve the church's witness.
And so you may feel that you have to advocate for a victim, but the leadership insists that you keep things quiet. And we've seen a lot of this across the country over the last five years. The Me Too movement brought the Church Too movement and it brought a lot of light to abuse that's occurred inside the church. And it brought to light a lot of instances where church leadership asked people to be quiet or just silence them all together in order to
protect a reputation and I just yeah it's very near and to my heart and one thing I just believe very strongly is that Jesus does not need us to protect his reputation if he did I don't think he would have left us on this earth after he saved us because he knew we were gonna mess it up so it's not our job to protect the reputation of Jesus he is perfectly capable of doing that on his own and the other part of that is that
Brenda (16:34.254)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (16:40.29)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (16:44.044)
Right?
Alex (16:56.918)
If silencing a victim of violence or abuse is protecting Jesus's reputation, I think we have a very skewed view of who Jesus is because as you said, he's going to run to the side of the oppressed.
Brenda (17:12.078)
That's right, that's right. Well I think closely tied to that is just a mandatory.
Mandatory, know, mandating church loyalty, I guess is what I would say. You know, when you're expected to discourage church members from leaving the church or having legitimate concerns about the doctrine or leadership or mistreatment. And, you know, I think what happens sometimes is that when we see patterns of controlling leadership, we might feel that we're going to be seen as being divisive if we speak up or we may actually be seen as being divisive.
Alex (17:24.331)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (17:50.496)
And I've heard people, you know, that were told to just trust their elders and stop asking questions and questioning decisions and, you know, just go with it. And kind of a blind loyalty. And these are men in positions, not Jesus himself. And we can look at great men throughout history, great men throughout history, throughout the Bible, who, you know, made some pretty big missteps. And so...
Alex (17:58.56)
Yeah.
Alex (18:11.839)
Hmm.
Brenda (18:18.818)
We don't want to have that level of blind loyalty. It really hurts our witness. It hurts the person that we're ministering to as well.
Alex (18:26.388)
And as we said, this is a really nuanced discussion. We're not talking about we discourage people to remain in a church that doesn't believe what we believe theologically, necessarily. We're gonna talk about that in another podcast. We're really talking about where that pattern of leadership becomes controlling. And so we're not talking about just theological differences. so I just wanna say,
of women who are in churches that I would not attend. I don't agree with all the doctrine. I don't agree with all the practice. And I don't have to speak into all of those places. But where women come up against a place where their own choices, particularly in these areas that we've enumerated with abuse, sexual sin, like that, abuse and violence, oppression, and then
where there's just, like you said, this unquestioning loyalty demanded that really can speak to an atmosphere of spiritual abuse. Like that's when I start to pay attention. And there's a lot of times I just hold my tongue and wait and watch because I might have some concerns, but I'm not gonna share those until something specifically happens. And so I do a lot of waiting and watching, and I'm sure that you do too, because I wanna make sure if I'm gonna speak into something that is as big as
that I want to make sure that I have some real evidence, so to speak, or some real basis for expressing my concerns.
Brenda (20:08.128)
I thank you for that clarification. think that's really good, because again, we love the church. You know, we love when God puts great and good leaders and godly leaders as pastors and elders and overseers and deacons and all those things. So we're very, very thankful and we certainly don't want to be divisive. But at the same time, our loyalty is to Jesus first and protecting women and children, especially is just a theme throughout the scriptures that we have to be committed to.
Alex (20:30.716)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (20:38.032)
So let's talk a little bit, Alex, about why people like us fall into this mindset that it doesn't matter what I believe.
Alex (20:38.122)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (20:48.394)
Can I say one thing before we tackle that? I think the reason it's important for us to talk about this in this podcast is because...
Brenda (20:50.517)
Sure.
Alex (20:57.59)
Part of the gifting I think that we bring to walking alongside people is a gifting of seeing and saying, I was listening to something not too long ago that said that seers, a person who is a seer is always going to have to become a seer. So in other words, when we see something, we are going to have to speak up. And oftentimes those of us who are attracted to personal ministry that's deeply involved in people's lives are people
Brenda (21:17.678)
Hmm.
Alex (21:27.554)
who see, we see, like you said, how does this belief in scripture play out in life? And we're called to say. And so that's, I don't think we seek out these situations. I think they come to us.
Brenda (21:40.77)
Right. Right. And you can't unsee.
Alex (21:44.532)
You cannot unsee. Now have to be careful how you say and we're going to talk about that, but we cannot unsee. And so it's the very ability that the Holy Spirit gives us as we enter into people's lives to see that that actually puts us in a position to see the things in churches that can be there and church leadership that can be dangerous. So that's why I think we have to talk about this. Now, why do we fall in the mindset that it doesn't matter what I believe is then we can
Brenda (21:48.952)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (22:14.486)
fall into this fear of conflict or people-pleasing where we don't want to rock the boat. Even though we have seen it, we are afraid to say because we know that the saying is going to cause a lot of conflict.
Brenda (22:31.406)
Yeah, and I have also found that if your leadership has proven not to be very humble or teachable, then there's actually some real reason to fear going into those conversations. And that can be a problem. And I would just say, if you're in a church and you're working with a really difficult situation and the leadership doesn't want to hear from you, or they only want to hear high level, or they just want to take your information and then take it back and one person talks
Alex (22:40.821)
Yeah.
Brenda (23:01.45)
and they take it back to the rest of the leadership, I would say that's really problematic.
Alex (23:05.846)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (23:06.286)
If you are, if you are counseling with someone or you are advocating with someone, you really need to have access to be able to share with the leadership. I've seen a lot of times a church leader who may be very staunch about their position from the pulpit. When faced with the situation across the chair in personal ministry begins to see the tension and the conflict in what they're preaching and will even change their previous held position.
Alex (23:30.976)
Yes, very true.
Alex (23:36.51)
Yes, I agree. That's true.
And it's scary to walk into that place, but I think you're right, it's very necessary. And I think this can be true whether you're in a professional setting as a counselor in a church or personal and you're walking with someone. Because oftentimes, particularly women in these situations do not have the emotional strength in the middle of those situations to sit in a room full of male leadership alone and they need to be surrounded and they need somebody to go into
those places with them.
Brenda (24:10.774)
And I just will say, I I was in a situation once where I wasn't sure I wasn't lining up exactly with a leadership in the church and I wasn't sure exactly how overall that was going to go out. And Alex, I was so afraid of the conversations and conflict. I contemplated quitting the job. And my husband was like, you will not quit.
Alex (24:27.498)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brenda (24:30.926)
You will go forward. You will have these hard conversations. But all I wanted to do was quit. I just wanted to run. It's like, is too hard. This is too much. I'm tired of these conversations. I'm tired of having to advocate. And yet it was really sweet. The Lord gave me the grace and I stayed in it. And some beautiful conversations ended up coming out of it. And I've seen as a result that a lot more women have been protected and cared for well.
Alex (24:55.03)
Yeah, and I don't want to for a minute, if anyone's in a professional setting, I don't want for a minute to minimize, like people pleasing can sound like, well, you just have to get over that people pleasing, but I've been in situations where I sincerely thought I was gonna lose my job.
Brenda (25:09.358)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (25:09.502)
because of what I was saying. And I was actually even told I might lose my job. That was not like, that was not me making up a story in my mind. So the cost is high in some of these situations. So it's not just like, I just want everybody to be happy with me, but there can be financial, professional costs in these situations that are scary. And yet there are often places that...
Brenda (25:19.938)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (25:28.056)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (25:33.418)
that God calls us into speaking. And as I've confessed my fear of...
being wrong. I think that's another place that I have struggled with speaking up is that I want to do this perfectly. I don't want to fail. And in these cases where there's so much gray, there's so much complexity, it is very hard to know if you're 100 % right all the time. You're just probably not going to know that there's going to be a place where you take a step of faith and you're speaking up. And so it is
very hard to step into those places when we're fearing being wrong, but often the Lord calls us to do that.
Brenda (26:18.014)
Well, and talking about my, you know, besetting struggle, kind of that desire for approval or the fear of disapproval. And I think that fear of conflict kind of speaks to the fear of disapproval. But I also think that desire for approval, like I want to be I want to be part of, you know, looking good. I want to be a part of this church. I don't want I want to be accepted, you know. And so I think that sometimes the approval of other people can become more of a drive
Alex (26:28.714)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex (26:40.63)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (26:47.888)
than having the integrity to sit with the person and the problem and the approval of God in that.
Alex (26:54.378)
Yeah, because you can definitely face a sense of being pushed out, pushed to the outside, feeling of being ostracized when you begin to speak up against certain things in leadership structure. So, yeah.
Brenda (27:01.294)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (27:11.158)
You can also not speak up because you misunderstand what unity is. And this is such a great point of clarity for me that unity is not uniformity or conformity. Like we can agree to disagree on these areas that are not specifically laid out in scripture. And gosh, I think the unity is so much more beautiful when we can
Brenda (27:26.894)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (27:40.38)
agree to disagree and hold each other's views and with honor and respect and not have to expect uniformity. But it's that is very, very hard to find these days. I think we feel uncomfortable when people don't agree with us. And I think it's also hard to navigate that when you're the one challenging the uniformity.
Brenda (27:41.73)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (27:57.944)
Hmm.
Brenda (28:04.926)
Mm-hmm, no doubt.
Well, we've already touched on a wrong view of biblical leadership. You know, if we think that they have ultimate authority, then we really are just going to say it doesn't matter what I believe. And then, you know, unfortunately, there is a fear if you're not in a professional environment, but maybe you're just a lay counselor, you're somebody in the in the church that's walking with a woman, that if you go against the church leadership, if you don't do exactly what they say, that, you know, you might be disciplined, you might be asked to leave, you might be asked to
Alex (28:15.062)
you
Brenda (28:37.072)
step away from the situation even though you've got a lot vested in this woman really trust you and you know we would say at that point there are times that it might be time to find a different church and you know we say that again not because we're dealing with
issues that are theological in nature and fringe issues, but when there's kind of this core idea of somebody's really being hurt, there's not a place to appeal, there's not a middle ground, there's your conscience is now really being...
damaged and your walk with Jesus, your ministry, all the things then again, I just say we don't take that lightly, but we're just saying and I don't think you know, we just say we're not taking that lightly, but it could be a possibility. I just leave it at that.
Alex (29:25.237)
Mm-mm.
Alex (29:32.198)
Yeah, I was thinking when you were talking, I don't think I've ever told someone you need to get a divorce and I've never told someone you need to leave your church, but I've definitely had conversations about that and we've weighed options so that someone can decide because these are two really big decisions. They're life altering and in the end, they're not going to alter my life a lot. They are going to alter the life of the person that I'm talking to and they are going to bear the weight and the consequences of those decisions. So we have a lot of conversations
Brenda (29:43.309)
Yeah.
Alex (30:02.072)
about that, that we can't make the decision for the person, we certainly asked to weigh in.
Brenda (30:09.166)
Mm-hmm.
Well, we've touched on some of the dangers and consequences, but maybe we could just highlight a little bit more because this is an area where if we're silenced, if we silence our conscience, it really can hurt us and it can hurt the people that we're around. And honestly, it can even hurt the church because if God's allowed you to see something, if he's allowed you to know something, then God might want to use you to help the church grow in some areas of ministry. And, you know, I think one of the areas is just
Alex (30:27.958)
you
Brenda (30:40.528)
if you don't stand up to your, you know, to what you believe and at least have conversations and again being willing that you could, you might be the one that needs to adjust your views. You might be the one that's wrong. But I think there's a feeling of being hypocritical and I think this whole idea of integrity, like if integrity is this wholeness, then what happens, I feel like you just kind of feel split, right? That you're not being authentic. That you're being one way internally and another way having to show up and I just think you can experience.
Alex (31:03.242)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brenda (31:10.528)
for me, the anxiety, the fear, the frustration, you know, and yeah, and that just makes it, that just really damages your own soul, I feel like.
Alex (31:13.407)
Right?
Alex (31:23.504)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think you're right because I think we have to remind ourselves so often that we live before the face of God, before we live before any church leader or denominational stance. And so we have to live within the integrity of what we believe that God's calling us to. And certainly does produce anxiety. The other thing that it can produce in us is we could carry guilt or regret if we're enabling harm to someone when they're in an abusive marriage.
really experience a lot of regret looking back or looking at the harm that someone has incurred.
Brenda (32:02.926)
I think another one is we can just dull the voice of the Holy Spirit. You know, we can ignore the conviction, his sensitivity to him, his guidance, and you know really if we do that over time it makes it harder to discern the voice of God as found in his Word through his heart and through his character.
Alex (32:07.231)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (32:20.342)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (32:25.589)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think another danger or consequence is that we could experience spiritual trauma. Now we can experience that if we speak up, but we can also experience that if we stay silent, especially if we feel betrayed by the church structure that pressures us to go against our own conscience. And so there's, you know, we've talked about trauma being a powerlessness. And if we have a learned helplessness or a learned powerlessness in these situations and we don't speak up because it's our choice, I think there can be trauma.
that occurs to us in these difficult situations. And again, there can be trauma that occurs if we speak up. Sometimes we can't avoid the trauma for ourselves. But again, to be able to live within our own integrity and use our agency is going to help minimize the trauma.
Brenda (33:05.208)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (33:12.93)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (33:18.272)
I know in my own experience, sometimes not speaking out or not being able to have healthy conversations has led to resentment and even bitterness toward certain schools of thought or certain people in the church. And so, you know, I think it's just another reason why we don't need to step away from these conversations but move toward them. I think the other maybe unintended consequences we might start doubting or minimizing biblical
Alex (33:26.101)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (33:34.742)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (33:41.664)
Yeah.
Brenda (33:48.128)
truths that have shaped our ministry. So if you don't, if you just accept what you're being told without wrestling, without thinking, without talking, then all of a sudden you can begin to bend convictions you've had in a different direction. And I would say you just maybe will lose your saltiness even.
Alex (33:50.25)
Yeah.
Alex (33:59.274)
Yeah.
Alex (34:06.87)
Your saltiness. I like that. Yeah, and like you said, the resentment and all those things can make it, can create damage to relationships. It can make it harder to respect authority. It can create a critical or a cynical spirit in ministry. And again, these things can occur if we speak up, but I think that they are more likely and more intense.
when we find ourselves continuing to stay silent and going against our own conscience.
Brenda (34:41.6)
Well, and think it's if we.
If we are persecuted quote unquote for righteousness sake for doing the right thing, I think that too is a matter of conscience because I think if you look back and you realize, well, that didn't go well, but I really did try to handle it. Well, I really did stand up for what was a matter of conscience. What I thought was good and right and true like the Lord will honor that. But if you don't stand up and you're silent, then you know again,
Alex (35:06.965)
Yeah.
Brenda (35:14.266)
Again, it might not go well if you stand up, but your conscience will be clear for standing up. think that's what I'm trying to say.
Alex (35:21.234)
Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So.
Brenda (35:25.454)
Well, there's some damage.
Yeah, there's some damage to others. just I just want to mention before we move on and and just you know, I think that when we when we're meeting with somebody and we're entering into a space with them and then we go and we talk to someone else and we decide now well, I have to go against my conscience if I'm going to be able to continue with this person. It can create a lot of confusion and distrust in the person we're counseling, right? Like if we're if we're double minded if we're going back between two opinions.
Alex (35:30.527)
Yeah.
Alex (35:51.497)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Brenda (35:56.544)
That just adds to the heartache, the trauma, the confusion of the person now that we're counseling.
Alex (35:57.184)
Yep.
Alex (36:05.354)
Yeah, and they may already be experiencing spiritual abuse, but now we're adding to the spiritual abuse by creating more doubt and confusion.
Brenda (36:14.03)
Yeah. Well, how do we counter? doesn't matter what I believe. Alex, I mean, the first thing is we pray, pray, pray, pray. And then when we're done, we pray some more. And we pray, we ask God for discernment on when to submit and when to speak and when to step away. And we want to be prepared to articulate our position with humility and clarity. And I will say that may be one reason why we don't want to enter in because it is a lot of work.
Alex (36:24.694)
That's so true.
Alex (36:40.562)
is a lot of work.
Brenda (36:41.802)
It's spiritually exhausting to have to pray that much and to gather the facts about the person and to gather your facts about what scriptures are you using to uphold your position. And so in a lot of ways, it's easier just to say, okay, I'll do what you want me to do or I'll leave the situation and recuse myself instead of hanging in there.
Alex (37:04.682)
Yeah, yeah. And I think what you're touching on is that we really have to be able to clarify our own convictions. And we sometimes have to do that outside of a situation. Like we need to be reading and studying and learning some of these areas that more frequently come up because when we're in the situation, it's so emotionally heavy where we can more...
clearly weigh the issue, I think, when we're not in the situation. So studying scripture, seeking wise counsel, and knowing what we believe in why, so that when that is challenged with a particular person in a particular case, we're able to articulate that.
Brenda (37:45.914)
One of the benefits of this current moment in Christianity is that we have access to a lot of other wise people who are studying some of these areas in depth from a biblical framework, a very solid theological perspective. So we're not saying if you have some conviction that is way out there that nobody else is holding to, you might need to go back and check yourself. But we can check ourselves against wise others. Right? We can find mentors and trusted friends.
outside of our immediate leadership or situation to process. think we can look for people who are specializing in the areas. And I think, you know, particularly we're talking about areas of abuse and trauma where, you know, historically maybe the church has not done a great job in these areas and is growing rapidly.
But there's people like Chris Moles and Leslie Vernick who have done incredible work both on the, what we might say, the clinically informed side, but very theologically robust when it comes to abuse. And we've got Darby Strickland and Diane Langeberg, all of these people we mentioned regularly on our podcast because they are our counselors. These are the people who have been teaching us from the scriptures, how do we have these wise conversations with leaders? And most of these people
Alex (38:58.389)
Right?
Brenda (39:08.096)
mentioning actually do leadership training with churches. And so that would be one avenue with your church if there's a disagreement. Maybe you don't feel equipped, but maybe you ask would your church leadership be willing to read a book together or go through a course together or have one of these speakers come in and share and then have a conversation with them on the back end. In other words, maybe helping your church lay a better theology for these things as opposed to trying to get in case by case disagreement.
Alex (39:11.498)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (39:37.936)
that can often go sideways.
Alex (39:40.766)
Yeah, and I've done that in my church and definitely seen just so much fruit from leadership being willing to be equipped, but also the leadership appointing small task force that are equipped in these areas of abuse and trauma. And we followed a model that the ERLC from the Southern Baptist Convention put out called Becoming a Church Well for the Abuse. I still think it's a really great model for how to equip church leaders.
at different levels. Not everybody needs to be an expert in this, but you do need to have a few people. And so it has certainly helped me to bring people together, train them, and then rely on them when an actual case comes up and get a lot of voices. Law enforcement, lawyers, women who've surrounded a woman, it's invaluable and I cannot emphasize that point enough.
Brenda (40:37.304)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (40:40.722)
And then I think that what we're gonna find is there may be times that it comes to a time when we have to set boundaries, that if we're asked to do something that goes against our own conscience, we're gonna have to lovingly but firmly decline. And that boundary may be to the extent that we have to walk away.
that if a leadership repeatedly demands that we violate our own conscience that we might have to reconsider our role in that structure. So, you know, we've wrestled, we both wrestled with this, I think, and I just counseled my daughter this week just on a very small matter where she felt overridden and disrespected and I said, well, like, you noticed something.
and now you say something and now you pay attention to what happens because if a leadership will engage with you when you do notice something, then keep engaging, keep the discussion open, be a person who is willing to say hard things and advocate for change in a structure. But if you find that the leadership is rigid and they're still respectful, then it's going to be hard, but you're going to have to decide
Brenda (41:35.982)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Alex (41:53.896)
how long and if you can continue to minister under their authority with integrity. But we've both, I think, experienced where a leadership is authoritarian or dismissive of valid biblical concerns that it may be time to reassess our role in that community and step away. And that's, again, it's a very difficult decision. I you and I both have this deep love.
and loyalty to the local church that make it hard to come to the point where we need to take a step back from it.
Brenda (42:26.318)
Hmm.
Brenda (42:33.272)
Mm-hmm. Now that's so good.
Well, the last thing we are doing in this series is just seeing how is Jesus the better counselor? know, how did he handle people who didn't believe the way he believed or religious leaders who disagreed with him? there's a lot more we could add to, but a few that we just thought of was, he spoke the truth in love, but didn't compromise. He prioritized God's will over human traditions, and he remained faithful to his mission even
when misunderstood.
Alex (43:08.052)
Yeah, I just want to add just a little personal story to that. I think in one of my hardest ministry experiences where this was happening and certainly a lot was being said, not just in my own church, but in the community. One of the things I had to repeat to myself over and over again and for about a year and a half, I could not speak the sentence out loud without weeping. And it was that my reputation does not belong to me. It belongs to Jesus. And I think Jesus lived
lived.
day in and day out recognizing that his reputation, what people thought of him, that belonged to God. Like he was called to follow his father and he left it in the father's hands. How people received him, what they thought of him. there will come a time when we will each have to do that. If we're going to be seers and sayers, we're going to have to entrust our reputation to the Lord. And it is one of the hardest things I've ever had to entrust to him because
Brenda (44:06.03)
Mm.
Alex (44:08.508)
In a lot of ways, we work hard in these communities to become people who are trusted. And then for that trust to be shattered by what people are saying about us feels devastating. it was really hard to recognize that, again, my reputation being ruined did not hinder the cause of Christ. It did not besmirch the name of Jesus in any way that was going to be damaging to him and his reputation.
And that it was his to do with what he wanted. And that was one of the hardest things to take my hands off of.
Brenda (44:44.684)
Hmm. Yeah, it's a great point and it is part of the cost.
that we talk about if we're going to do ministry well and be faithful. Well, I hope that this podcast has given our listeners some really good food for thought. We certainly don't have it all figured out and these are waters that we are still walking through and having to make these kind of decisions in those hard cases on a regular basis. And so we don't take it lightly. The goal is not to be divisive or argumentative.
Alex (45:07.923)
Mm-hmm.
Alex (45:17.75)
All right.
Brenda (45:21.584)
but to live with integrity. And we want to encourage our listeners and our own hearts to not sacrifice our convictions for comfort.
Alex (45:24.202)
Mm.
Alex (45:33.238)
Hmm
Brenda (45:35.278)
or because, well, for comfort. Because there's a lot of ways that standing up for your convictions can make you very uncomfortable and other people can make you uncomfortable. But our voice matters. What God is teaching us and showing us and our convictions matter. And we can just focus maybe on taking small intentional steps to build a ministry that reflects both grace and truth. We don't want to be barging
Alex (46:02.42)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda (46:05.292)
through the door with demands and again being contentious in any way. We always lead with grace and truth and we go humbly and prayerfully.
ready to have conversations that bring about understanding as opposed to conversations where we are imposing our views. But I think that if you're involved with personal ministry that it is good to think ahead about the things we are saying. So when you are in these situations, because eventually you will find yourself in one of these situations, you will have already decided at least at some level next steps in what measures need to be taken.