Season 10 Ep.3 / My Life Has To Be Perfect!

Brenda (00:02.484)

Well, hello, my friend. We were just talking about feeling rather scattered this morning.

Alex (00:04.013)

Hello.

Alex (00:09.462)

Yeah, I was thinking this morning how funny it is to just pause your life, sit down and start talking about something like life is going on and then you just stop and you change gears.

Brenda (00:22.482)

And as you said, you just do the next thing, right? Well, I think it could be a really perfect backdrop. No pun intended, because today we're going to talk about how my life doesn't or the lie we believe that my life has to be perfect in order to help other people. So in our distracted state this morning, maybe in our hurried state this morning, we're going to very practically and personally probably prove our point that your life does not have to be perfect in order to help other people. But we're in this

Alex (00:47.446)

Yes.

Brenda (00:52.406)

season called Do As I Say and Not As I Do. And today we want to talk about maybe one of the more familiar lies we hear people say to themselves when they have an honest and sincere desire to do personal ministry. And that is my life has to be perfect. You and I do a lot of tray counseling. counseling. Here we go. Even my speech is going to be so imperfect. My enunciation.

Alex (01:14.398)

Yes. Proving the point as we go.

Brenda (01:22.164)

You know, I think there's just this feeling of like, how can I help anyone else when I have so far to go? Or is it okay for me to help people when I'm still struggling with some, you know, suffering part of my life or sin part of my life? And, you know, the question is sincere and we understand the concern, but I was thinking, you know, the reality is, is that from the day we become a Christian, we become a biblical counselor. In some ways, fully equipped, right, to take the word of God to some

Alex (01:36.983)

Hmm.

Alex (01:48.418)

Hmm.

Brenda (01:52.07)

somebody else to encourage them, to comfort them, to show them what God's Word says and how to walk in God's ways, to listen to them, to be present. And so, you know, we have to think about when, if we're a wife or a mother or a friend or a daughter or a sister, are we called to be perfect? Any of those places? Some of us want to be perfect, Alex, right?

Alex (01:53.548)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (02:14.028)

Yeah. I don't know who that would be.

Brenda (02:17.62)

Yeah, but I think the reality is is when we come to this idea of thinking about personal ministry, particularly if we begin to think outside of our sphere of influence, we may feel additional pressure. I think we just need to sigh and realize that in every aspect of our life there is counseling going on and we are not perfect. We have been made perfect by Christ and we are being perfected in as much as we're growing. But I'd also like to say that there are times and seasons that we

Alex (02:40.92)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (02:47.604)

might be engaged with sin and suffering struggles and we need to take a step back. We need to focus on our own growth before we walk with others. also, you know, maybe just having people around us be able to help us, I don't know, just discern. Is this a good season, particularly if you're going to step out in more of a public ministry or outside of your sphere of influence where maybe you're doing some counseling or some more intentional discipleship. So the point we just want

Alex (03:16.194)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (03:17.494)

to make really is we'll never arrive at perfection on this side of heaven, and yet God has given us all these one another commands to enter into one another's lives. And so, it's an act of faithfulness, not an act of perfection.

Alex (03:30.654)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I was, I think I said in a previous podcast in the season, I'm listening back to some podcasts that we've done, which I don't normally do. And I'm listening to a podcast when I went on sabbatical and then subsequently quit my job at the church. And I'm listening to these podcasts thinking my life was falling apart while I was talking about that stuff. And, but there's just a sweetness actually in listening to it of just going like,

I was doing the next thing. I was trying to be faithful. Definitely didn't feel like I had it all together. Probably got off the podcast and crawled to the couch because I was so exhausted in that season. But it's just kind of sweet to see the way the Lord

uses us in our weakness, allows the Holy Spirit to shine through maybe even more in our weakness than when we feel like we're strong. And so it's been, it's been fun approaching this podcast to realize the different seasons that I've been in as we have recorded.

Brenda (04:35.624)

Yeah.

Boy, me too. And you know that since we started this podcast, my family has been just through a series of issues, particularly on the suffering side of things. And so not only does my life not have to be perfect because I'm a sinner, but also because there's a lot in my life that's suffering and can't wait for the sin or the suffering to go away. Well, let's talk about some of the dangers or pitfalls as we might say, if we have this mindset or this attitude that my life has to be perfect.

Alex (04:43.82)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (04:52.994)

Right.

Alex (05:05.057)

Well, I think the first one that comes to my mind is that we'll never feel ready if we wait. And I think that is one of the first things I say to people when they come to me with this concern. But you know, if we wait until we figured it out and you and I, I remember having this conversation when we started the podcast because we've looked back and realized that we've changed the way we teach certain things that we understand things differently. And we said, well, what happens when we record and

there's this library of permanence of things that we're teaching and we just talked about the fact that we don't want to be people who stop growing.

Growth is this lifelong process that we want to be engaged in. And that means we might come to a podcast a year from now and say, we've changed our thinking on something. And that would be a good thing because that means that that is evidence of our engagement with the spirit, with the scriptures and a life that we're committed to growth and learning. And so if we wait till we've mastered every struggle, till we understand every topic, we're never going to feel qualified to help. And also just recognizing that

Healing and wisdom don't come from having no struggles like these struggles themselves help us to gain wisdom and we are learning those things as we navigate the struggles in our lives.

Brenda (06:30.728)

Yeah, and I will just say today, I don't feel ready.

Alex (06:34.508)

Right.

Brenda (06:34.612)

Right? Because the irony kind of is the more you know, the more you don't know. So yeah, there's, don't know that we ever get to a place, if we're honest, where we feel like we've truly arrived. Well, another pitfall of thinking we have to be perfect is it does create a false standard. Like if I think I have to be perfect, then I'm going to potentially portray that on somebody or put that on somebody else, or they're going to walk away thinking they have to be perfect.

Alex (06:40.012)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (06:52.417)

Hmm.

Brenda (07:04.625)

authenticity more than they want perfection. They need to see that we're growing, we're struggling, we're changing our minds, that times we're backing up, we're moving forward, not just someone who's arrived. And I was reminded yesterday, my daughter has a two year old and a five month old. And so of course, with the two year old, they're getting into some of the little discipline and correction, the struggles, the temper tantrums. And it was sweet because she said, mom, I may not take all the advice you give me, i.e. I know you're not perfect and you didn't do this perfectly.

Alex (07:07.191)

Hmm.

Alex (07:21.747)

Ooh. Mm-hmm.

Alex (07:31.945)

Mm-hmm

Brenda (07:34.438)

But I did want to ask you because I know that you have some wisdom and that you've walked where I've walked and so I just I really consider that such a compliment that she would come to me and ask I mean but she pretty much prefaced it with the fact that she she knows me she knows my parenting imperfections along the way and yet she sees the value in the fact that I've been authentic because we've talked about those failures and I've been able to say gosh if I could do it over again here are some things that I wish I had known I would do

Alex (07:40.513)

Hmm.

Alex (07:57.708)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (08:04.392)

it differently.

Alex (08:05.288)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. And the other danger I think that we see when we think we have to be perfect. I mean it creates this false standard, but then because we have this too high of a standard, we basically won't act. won't, we will just stay stuck. We'll hesitate to step into leadership roles or mentoring or ministry because we'll always think that we're not good enough because we can't meet this false standard that we've set. And then we're

We're basically in that analysis paralysis where we won't ever truly follow the calling on our lives to be involved in other people's lives. So creating the false standard then leads inevitably, I think, to the paralysis itself.

Brenda (08:52.596)

you

Yeah, don't you think in a lot of ways that's just might be rooted in the fear of failure? You know the fear of hurting someone if we don't say or do the right thing or even looking bad, you know, could be a good motivation. It could be a bad motivation, but I think so often that fear of failure and if we as people helpers can just know we are going to fail and accept that reality. But even in that failure, God is going to do something really good and really special for humble enough to admit it. Go to the person,

Alex (08:57.998)

Alex (09:16.139)

Right.

Alex (09:22.55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brenda (09:23.346)

changes. well, another pitfall is, you know, trying to be perfect when only Jesus is perfect shifts the focus away from Jesus. And we want people to understand that it's God's grace. You know, it's God's grace working through us. It's God's grace working through them. And, you know, I think that our struggles and imperfections are actually ways for people to connect deeply with us.

Alex (09:31.606)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alex (09:39.67)

right?

Brenda (09:53.158)

this is one of the values, honestly, of biblical friendship and, you know, having spiritual friends as opposed to what I'm going to say maybe a lot of more professional people in the professional counseling space who maybe can't share their lives as much as we are able to do in our lane as friends or Christian counselors. And so, I just think it's beautiful how many people I counsel even today that are deeply connected with me

Alex (09:57.442)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (10:11.234)

Right.

Brenda (10:23.102)

in my story, these women pray for me. I've got men and women who check in on me, they love me. There is a real mutuality that occurs that is just precious. So at the end of the day, we have to realize Jesus is the only real imperfect savior. And when we try to be him, we're gonna get in the way of others really seeing him.

Alex (10:34.69)

Hmm.

Alex (10:45.858)

Yeah.

I think that also creates this, the last danger we'll talk about it, is that it creates this hypocrisy. We start to want to hide our struggles so that we can appear perfect and then we don't want to deal with them because we're so busy hiding them. We're spending all our energy hiding. And then that just leads to a lot of burnout, a lot of isolation and maybe even as far as a double life where we're pretending to be stronger than

Brenda (11:05.576)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (11:16.698)

we really are, we're pretending to have it together or to not be struggling with an area of sin or suffering when we really are. So I think that's probably the most drastic danger can lead us into the most drastic places of hiding and isolating and allowing sin, particularly sin to grow.

Brenda (11:41.076)

And I think that's where Jesus really railed against some of the leaders, right? It was that they were pretending, that they were saying that they were one way and they were doing that on the outside, but on the inside they were different. There was a lot of duplicity. And so I think that's a great point and a very sad reality that if we try to come across as being perfect, that it will lead to these other things you've mentioned and can really hurt our relationship with Jesus, which then is definitely going to hurt our relationship with other people. And I find the sad thing is

Alex (11:45.39)

All right.

Brenda (12:11.03)

people who fall into that camp don't even... often they're blinded by their own pride and so they don't even recognize the lack of depth they have with Jesus understanding His grace and how that is actually impacting their sphere of influence or their personal ministry.

Alex (12:17.047)

Right.

Alex (12:28.302)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (12:29.684)

Well, we want to talk about just a few ways to think about healthy and effective ministry and how we need to grow as we help people, not before we help people. I was recently in Exodus, I think it's chapter 17 or 18. It's where Moses is in the wilderness, and all these people, all these three million people got all these problems and they got one person, one counselor, Moses, and they're all coming.

Alex (12:42.166)

Hmm.

Alex (12:58.701)

Hmm.

Brenda (12:59.718)

to him and his father-in-law shows up and says, dude, you got to do something about this. This is too much. You're going to get burned out. And so, you know, he tells Moses that he needs to go and he needs to find other people to help. And one thing that I learned in my study is that historically, the Hebrew perspective on the qualifications of leadership is always tied to wisdom. And I think a big part of wisdom is that you know where you still need to

Alex (13:02.74)

Is it?

Alex (13:23.918)

Mmm.

Brenda (13:29.608)

grow and you're partnering with God for that growth, right? But interestingly enough, later in history when we get to the Gentiles and you have a lot more Gentile influence in the church, they were adopting a more Greek mindset that being a leader or helping people was based on what you know disconnected from your actions. So I think what we're saying here is you don't have to be perfect, but you can't disconnect what you know from your actions if you're going to have an effective personal

Alex (13:30.434)

Yeah, great point.

Alex (13:53.111)

right?

Alex (13:57.358)

Mm.

Brenda (13:59.61)

ministry. And Moses, when God said go find some people, he didn't say go find perfect people, he said go find people who fear me, they know me, they want to know truth, they know they hate dishonesty and so these are people with humility, spiritual strength, personal integrity. And also I think an interesting thing that I think we've lost a little bit in our culture because we can be get so much of our counseling, our mentoring and all of that online and not in person is that we can be disconnected from our

Alex (14:00.59)

you

Alex (14:07.021)

Hmm.

Brenda (14:29.384)

mentors and our teachers. And one of the beautiful things about a Jewish model and the Christian model is that we grow and learn in community where we actually get to know and see people's imperfections. And Moses himself is just a great example of a God-calling and imperfect man who learned on the job, right, to trust God even as he was, you know, failing and growing along the way.

Alex (14:31.106)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (14:41.336)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (14:49.708)

Right?

Alex (14:56.322)

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's really good. I love the different perspectives and seeing how the ideas of leadership have changed and how we've we have adopted more of that Greek mindset. Yeah, and I think that it's true. There is this struggle. There's this tension that we're asking people to hold that you can't lead someone where you haven't been.

Right? And so, and that doesn't mean you have to know every issue, but in the broad sense, you can't take someone where you haven't been, you don't need to be perfect, but you do have to have a level of experience and wisdom, as you said, Moses did. and to recognize that a lot of times what that wisdom is, I really like your point of recognizing the areas of growth that you need to work on in your life, not have it all together. But here's what I'm working on. Here's what I'm looking at, because

people are more willing to listen to someone who who is in that growth mindset and is doing the work themselves.

Brenda (16:00.412)

Yep. Well, I think if you're growing, you're not only going to strengthen your spiritual capacity, but your emotional capacity as well.

And you know, if you're not actively growing in the Lord, you are going to be short on patience, wisdom and endurance, all of which are very necessary to walk alongside other people. And this is why I think the family is so genius, because it's really in that atmosphere that there is so much opportunity for growth, because it's such a pressure cooker. And without, you know, personal growth, we

Alex (16:33.356)

Mm-hmm.

Brenda (16:39.11)

going to become overwhelmed, frustrated, and discouraged when helping people. listen, I still get overwhelmed, frustrated, and discouraged in helping people. So I have not arrived. And usually that starts, unfortunately, know, within my immediate sphere of influence, the people I know the best, I get the most discouraged or angry with or upset with or frustrated with. But even as I go out into my professional ministry context, you know, and this is why just the idea of repeated repentance also is

Alex (16:47.617)

Right.

Alex (16:53.453)

Yeah.

Brenda (17:08.98)

so important that I'm just always going back to the Lord because it just demonstrates humility that without growth in Christ, without dependence on Christ, you know, I'm not going to not only give the right spiritual information but not even have the right emotional capacity or ability to walk with people well.

Alex (17:09.206)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (17:26.839)

Right.

Yeah, emotional capacity and I would also say posture. Like we don't have a humble and teachable posture if we are not always a learner. So as I continue to recognize my own ongoing sin and suffering struggles, then I remember that I'm just as much a learner as the person that I'm talking to. And I recognize that my own need for growth, you know, helps prevent pride. Like you said, it helps us be more

compassionate and loving towards others. think it's more we recognize that we really are coming alongside. We're not lording over. We're just coming alongside in someone else's struggles with sin and suffering.

Brenda (18:14.206)

You know, Alex, I don't struggle often with depression. It's just, I'm, I am more of an exhorter and encourager. would say anxiety is more, you know, my struggle and that one I get pretty easily and fear and people pleasing and all kinds of things. But, but, typically I'm not easily discouraged or depressed, but there have been, you know, some times throughout the years that I have found myself in kind of the depths of depression, just really stuck in dark, dark, dark places and have a really hard time getting out of the

funk. And I've actually come to appreciate those times in the aspect of what it does for my understanding of personal ministry and walking with people. Because I don't struggle in that area, I can kind of be like somebody's depressed. Like, come on, come on, come on. Like, let's get going. There's lots to be thankful for. You know, let's... And when you're in that place and you realize that you can't, you can't just will yourself out of that spot, you have a lot more compassion.

Alex (19:00.494)

Hmm.

Alex (19:12.782)

Hmm.

Brenda (19:13.404)

and in relying on the Lord for other people. And I think so much of that is just

Alex (19:20.215)

Right.

Brenda (19:24.358)

as I understand the Lord's compassion for me in that area, when I'm stuck, then I'm able to walk alongside other people in a better way. I don't, you know, I don't get excited when I go into that state, but I am reminded and I do take it as an opportunity to be humble and teachable about what it's like to live in a place that I don't often have to go to, but other people go to often.

Alex (19:28.343)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (19:47.98)

Hmm. Yeah, I had someone who I counseled last week and I've counseled them for about a year and a half. And it's the first time I

They knew my broad struggle with chronic pain, I shared more in the particular. And one of the things he said to me as we were leaving our session was he said, you know, my last counselor finally looked at me and said, it's time for you to get over this.

And he said, I really feel like I've known you've heard me, but I think I really didn't know how much you've heard me until now. And I got in my car and I drove away and I thought, my goodness, he's been waiting for me to say it's time for you to get over this. Right. Like, and I think sharing my own struggle allowed him to see like, I'm not going to say that. I get it. Like I know you're not just going to snap out of this. There doesn't come a point one day.

Brenda (20:39.988)

Hmm.

Alex (20:52.492)

where you just get over it, right? Like, I know you want to get over this as much as or more than anyone else. And so it was just the sweetest thing because I felt like this new level of trust was established because he was willing to share that story with me and because I shared my own struggle with him.

Brenda (21:06.046)

Hmm.

Brenda (21:13.951)

Goodness, Alex, that is so powerful. And I just think about, you know, kind of in the same vein, a woman that I meet with who lost her 12-year-old daughter. And, you know, just that grief, that's not something she's ever gonna get over. But she's gonna learn to depend on Jesus and receive his compassion as she moves through that trial for the rest of her life. So.

Alex (21:27.726)

Mm-mm.

Alex (21:35.186)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, we have some ways to think about the opposite, I guess, or the counter to, my life has to be perfect. And the first one is we need to remember that we don't need to be perfect to help others. We just need to be maybe one step further in the journey and willing to be real as we walk with people. So we're just kind of summarizing things we've already said, but just recognizing that what people want is somebody to be with them in it.

Brenda (22:04.884)

That's right. And maybe another way to say that would be love is more important than perfection. If you show up, you care, you're compassionate, you're present, your love will go so much further than any alleged proposed, I don't know, perfection you think you have to bring to the table.

Alex (22:09.838)

Mmm, I like that.

Alex (22:25.41)

Right?

And I think that with that posture and being willing to share some of the things that we struggle with and just approaching it as we all struggle is a reminder of what scripture tells us that there is no temptation that's taken us but such as is common to man. Like we are all struggling in their essence with the same temptations, the same trials. And so it's like we're living that out as we let people know that

they're not alone in their sin and suffering.

Brenda (22:59.14)

And one of the ways that we can help them know they're not alone is to actually share our own stories when it's appropriate. And we've talked about this before that you don't want to make it about you. You we all know those people that whenever you bring something up, they're going to bring it back to them. And it's just so annoying. So don't be that person.

Alex (23:04.098)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (23:13.568)

Right?

Who is it Penelope? I can't remember who she is on Saturday Night Live. The one who always one ups you. here's your and she one ups.

Brenda (23:25.232)

yeah, yeah, That's right. That's right. We don't want to be that person, but to wisely, just like you did with your friend, to wisely know and to allow the Holy Spirit to lead you is a beautiful, beautiful thing. I've seen it so, so, so many times and just the blessing that comes with that mutuality of shared suffering is really, really helpful.

Alex (23:50.208)

And then let's say that I think the other thing we want to remind people of is in order to comfort others with the comfort we've been given, we're going to have to be honest about how the Lord has comforted us. And we really literally can't fulfill the command that God has given us to comfort others if we can't admit that we have struggled with those things.

Brenda (24:13.14)

You know, think just the final thing is that if we find that the person we're talking to, maybe our struggle is too deep or too similar to their struggle, we can ask somebody else to step in. And I know this has happened in my life. You know, there's just been times and particularly when my parenting struggles, particularly with some of the addiction issues that have affected my family and some of the overflow of that, or just seasons where, you know, I've really been struggling with something.

Alex (24:26.249)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (24:40.876)

Right.

Brenda (24:43.144)

that I've known that I'm going to come I'm going to approach this in a way that's going to be tainted. You know, and we don't want to do that. If you are in a real embittered season with your husband, then you might not be the best person to counsel your friend who's struggling with bitterness with their husband. Right? Because you're just going to add fuel to that fire. So we just have to be careful and be mindful and realize that you know, it's okay. Sometimes I've just had to tell people, I love you and I want to walk

Alex (24:48.418)

Right.

Alex (24:59.95)

Hahaha

Brenda (25:13.044)

this journey with you and I will pray for you, but I'm struggling so much in the same place you're struggling. I don't actually think we're good for each other. We better find somebody else who can walk with us and get both of our heads and hearts on straight, you know, and that's okay.

Alex (25:20.362)

Mm-hmm.

Alex (25:24.046)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I think that takes a real sensitivity to the Holy Spirit because the flip side is there have been times when I'm struggling with the same thing and the words that have come out of my mouth for the other person are exactly what I needed, my own heart needed to hear. And so there's a tension there of knowing like, am I willing to say the hard thing that my heart needs to hear?

Brenda (25:39.154)

Yes. Yes. Yep.

Brenda (25:47.708)

And Alex, I think that is the key. If you are in a hard place, but you are still able to speak truth, then speak the truth. But if you are in a hard place and you realize that you're going sideways on somebody, you need to bail for your sake, their sake, everybody's sake. Right? That's right, absolutely. Well, last, go ahead, go ahead.

Alex (25:59.254)

Yes. Yes. When you find yourself venting more than you do listening and speaking true, that's probably a good indication it's time to pull back. You know, I think, go ahead.

I was going to segue to the last part because I think it can be really hard to share our struggles. We talk about it almost like, yeah, just share what you're struggling with. But I think there are times, not just for me, a perfectionist, but I think really for everyone, can be to share our struggles if we can't root ourselves back in who Jesus is because it's scary for people to know us. It's scary to share our story. It's scary to think

that they'll go, well, why are you trying to help me if you're struggling with that? So we go back to my little mantra that the perfect life has already been lived for us and for the person that we're sitting with. And so we can trust that we are hidden, accepted and loved in Christ. And so we can venture out and be willing to share what's hard for us.

Brenda (26:51.793)

Right.

Brenda (27:11.72)

Yep. And we can also remember there has never, ever, ever, ever been a time in scripture where the failure of man thwarted God's ultimate purposes. God shows us in the scripture that He knows how to use imperfect people perfectly.

Alex (27:32.116)

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the last thing we want people to remember is that the person that you counsel already has a perfect counselor. And as we said in the beginning, it's not you. They have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who uses his word and other people in their lives to remind them of truth, convict them of sin, comfort them and so we can trust that the spirit will be at work.

Brenda (28:01.509)

And I just...

If you haven't read Psalm 19 in a while, such a beautiful about God's word and the sufficiency of it, Psalm 119, just great reminders of the perfection of God and his ways and his word and the Holy Spirit's job to come and to remind us and encourage us. And to your point, other believers who can walk alongside us as well. So we want to wrap up this episode just by saying that growth is important. We would even say growth is vital, but perfection is not.

Alex (28:30.614)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brenda (28:32.81)

We need to stay humble, keep learning, and trust that we can help others while still being in process ourselves.

Alex (28:42.03)

That's right. So I hope people continue to join us on this journey where we encourage you to do as we say and not as we do. And we share our ministry failures mainly to inspire and encourage you to get out there and be willing to fail.